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*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:37 pm; edited 3 times in total*

We have debated the issue of wether it is proper to refinish the steel on an old gun or not before here. There has been the ususal pro and con wrestling. I recently had a nice conversation with one of my old friends in the metal refinishing business who pointed out some things we should know about the subject. It reminded me of the difference between rust bluing, heat bluing, and hot salt dip bluing, something I used to know by heart from my old gun show days.

The difference between modern hot blued steel and Pre-WWI rust bluing or charcoal heat bluing is that hot dip salt blue penatrates the steel to a micron or more and will not turn the even brown patina the older type finishes will in time. It cannot because the surface of the steel does not wear away deeply and evenly enough for this overall browning to occur. So hot blue will only speckle and spot rust with lots of bear metal sticking through where the softer surface oxidation has been wiped or polished off over the years

The process of patina or turning brown fairly evenly is inevitable with old traditional bluing techniques due to the natural process of oxidation that occurs as the gun is used. These finishes do not penetrate into the steel. They are all surface oxidation and nothing more. So the exposed steel and the rust bluing will eventually turn a fairly even brown together. the best way to preserve patina is to wax it and don't over buff. That is what the savvy old traders do to protect their 18th and 19th century pieces.

I used to know this fact about penatration but forgot it until reminded. That is why I would have to stifle a laugh when I'd hear some gun dealer at a show refer to a rust ruined hot blue finish on a post WWII gun as patina if it was his or just plain rust if it was yours. It is actually from either normal wear or neglect and nothing more on a fairly modern gun.

That is also why I advocate having a post WWI hot blued gun reblued if it needs it. I simply ignore all the malarky about devaluing it. That is pure marketing strategy--a cheap ploy to devalue a gun for buying purposes. I just ignore this crap, because that is what it is. A quality reblue job will actually restore the value of a gun, especially if its done by the original maker or someone who can match the original finish. However, the emphasis is on quality work and not a quick once over the sanding belt followed by a polishing wheel like some cheap shops will do.

If the steel underneath a worn and spotty hot blued finish is properly pickled, cleaned, and repolished, the lettering and stamping will not be damaged. This is where all the careful fine workmanship comes in. The correct way is to lightly and carefully polish these stamped and lettered areas first by hand back to the level of the original factory finish, followed by a careful polishing overall to the same uniform grade as the original. Then reblue to the same color as the original. If it is done in this fashion, even experts can't tell and nothing is devaklued. Such work is considered a restoration.

However, if a gun has been allowed to rust to the point of pitting, then this will devalue a gun unless the pitted area can be removed or restored without degrading the original contours or any stamped or engraved areas. But that is always the price of neglect is it not? Don't let it happen and you won't pay the price.

Most modern blued guns are not highly but finely polished and sport a utility grade or #2 finish. A good example of this grade would be the modern Grade I Citori. Only the very finest custom guns and some better handguns like the post WWII S&W premium N frames like model 29 and 27 magnums usually get the full mirror finish polishing. So overpolishing a gun can be a dead giveaway that its been redone. Its best to match the original finish and not overdo it. So says my friend in the business of finishing steel for a living. He should know. That is good enough for me.

Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Wickenburg, AZ

I'm currently working on an old Winchester #1912 20ga. I'm going to try to rust blue it myself. It was in very bad shape when I bought it, looked like it had been in a barn for a while. The wood came out much better than I thought it would.

Walt, I'm not certain, but I think the earliest standard production nickel steel model 12 shotguns were inexpensively heat or charcoal blued. Only the custom models were rust blued. Post nickel steel era standard production guns were utility grade polished with some surfaces like the receiver top sand blasted to a dull surface followed by a relativelyquick and thin hot salt blue job.

You might just consider a hot blue job and let it go with that unless the gun is a museum piece. The result will be much more durable for a shooter IMO. Easier to do too. another option would be one of the modern Mil-Spec flat black super phosphate finishes available. The cost is not bad and the results are as durable as can be. Not bad looking either--way better than the older greenish ones. I had a rusted over but mechanically sound Remington 1100 3" magnum I got cheap done this way for a duck gun. It still looks great after almost 15 years of mud, crud, moon pie and/or snickers residue, spilled coffee, and oh yeah, duck blood and feathers mixed with retriever spit.

However, the nickel steel guns will not take a hot blue job well I don't think or so I've been told. I've never had one done so I do not really know. Perhaps somebody with the knowledge about these nickel steel era guns might weigh in here.

I do know there was a reason they were not hot salt blued. Maybe it was just economics. Winchester put the cost into machining and was not noted for the fine finish on its standard grade guns. They were meant to be utility grade shooters for the everyman and not fashion statements for the upper class. that was where the custom grades came in.

PS: I do not think Winchester ever plated their nickel steel guns with iron, then blued them like they did to the late era 1894 rifles and carbines as some folks claim. I don't believe this practice started until they began using cast recievers after 1964 on the rifles.

I do know you can not hot blue one of these post '64 carbines once the iron is polished off. I have one that looks like it is french grayed. This came about from being accidently pickled with repeated coats of cold blue that would not take. I must have tried it 10 times or more. It would not blue, but now it will not rust easily either so something positive happened. It looks a little like a White Lightning Citori. I am satisfied with that. Its rather handsome in its own way if I kind of cross my eyes and squint a bit. At least it is no longer the hideous rusted, speckled wreck it once was---yyyyuuccckkk!!! Laughing

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Walt go ahead and rust blue your fine old Model 12. As we both know that is the way Winchester used to do it before it they changed to hot blue to keep costs down.

Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Wickenburg, AZ

The gun was in bad enough shape to begin with that this will be a reclamation more than a restoration so I am not too interested in originality. I'm also doing it for a learning experience for myself. About 25 or so years ago I was restoring another #1912 16ga and in talking to a gunsmith who claimed to know I was advised that it should be rust blued as it originally was. I've read that the factory used different processes at different times and sometimes more than one process at a time. Very confusing.

Like I said, I was not certain about just how Winchester finished their earliest model 12 guns. I've never seen a real early original with an out of th box finish. Most have gone to brown, or gray and are worn to the steel.

I do know that good rust bluing is labor intensive and not quickly and easily done. Unless there is a quick process I do not know about. Today, its a fairly expensive process of carefully degreasing and cleaning the steel, followed by repeated applications, of the rusting agent, then into a sweat box, followed by carding off the oxidation and reapplying the agent and the box until the uniform color is achieved. It is usually used to restore the finish on historic guns for museum quality work or for a presentation piece.

I once browned an old T/C barrel using a historic concoction containing boiled cow urine among other stuff i probably do not want to know about. The process of applying and carding is about the same. no heat was used as the new breowning solutions call for. Just time and a sweat box. I was told that plum brown can be turned to a dark blue/black if carried too far. My result was a deep soft, non reflective plum brown. I followed up with repeated applications of bee's wax well rubbed in to add some protection and sheen like the old timers did.

Heat bluing is both quick and predictable in a furnace and works fairly well on most types of carbon steel. Heat bluing was commonly used during the first half of the 20th century and in some cases, still is today. T/C heat blued their Hawken muzzle loading barrels for nearly the first decade of production until about 1981. Quite a few Italian and Spanish makers have used the method until recently. For smaller parts like triggers, guards, and fasteners, it still is. nor does it require a finishing polish as the parts come out with the same shinyness they go in with if done right . However, its not durable. Neither is rust bluing compared to hot salt bluing. Its just more durable tan heat bluing and adds a softer, less reflective finish.

However, I have never seen proof of how Winchester finished their guns in the early 20th century. I'd really appreciate a reliable source for the info if anyone can offer it. thanks.