16ga.com ~ View topic

Member Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Otsego, MN

Hello,

I am relativly new to the world of 16ga guns, but I have to say I love mine.

The question I have is: I have a French Guild SXS that I picked up in an auction for 300. The gunsmith I brought it to, thinks it was made between 1895 and 1930. Is there any way to get a date for a guild made gun? I love the gun, and have been intrigued with finding out a little more about it.

Thank you,

......cool gun, I have no idea when it was made, or how to figger it, I have 2 French guns and I LOVE them, they are stronger than English guns (can shoot heavier stuff withoutshooting loose), they are real "sleepers" (as you yourself have just substantiated by the outrageously low price you just payed!) may I ask what your gun weighs? One of mine is 5 pounds even, and the other is 5 1/2 lbs.....

....maybe somebody on the site will be able to tell you based on the proof marks on the barrel flats, but I can't, I would concur that it is most likely a pre war gun (possibly pre WW I even, huh?)
Congrats to you on a superb purchase, i simply love my French guns, tres bien, monsieur......

britgun

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

weight,barrel length---details Wink

yeah, like hoashooter asked..... please oh please??? details, man..... Smile

britgun

I have 5 French sxs gun and no 6 on the way, they have to be the best kept secret around, they are;

1 Verney Carron 12ga BLE great wood excellent workmanship
1 Manufrance Robust 16ga grade 20 or 21??
1 Manufrance Robust 16ga grade 24
1 Manufrance Robust 16ga grade 26
1 MAC 16ga 16ga very plain but light and double proofed
1 on the way 16ga ???

French guns are hard to establish age, proof marks will give some clue 2 of my Robust have a date stamp under the buttplate. The 20 #166216 is stamped 1932; the 24 #137762 is stamped 1929; the 26 is not stamped probably because it has a rool-up sling installed in the butt. The stamped dates are probably a Manufrance thing as the other 2 have nothing stamped but are surely pre WW2 production. If you have a Manufrance Robust or Ideal check under the Buttplate

JIm Very Happy

The 3 Robust gun weigh from 6lb 2oz to 6lb 6oz the No26 is the heaviest probably because of the retractable sling. All 3 have the heavy breech section that drops abruptly to the barrels, and are BLNE with 27 1/2 barrels. all have the serial stamped under the top lever along with a 3 digit code all have the same code on the lower rib just in front of the barrel flats. the 2 higher grades have the 3 digit code on the floorplate along with 2 digit model # It looks like this as far as guns go

#166216, 3digit code 201, also marked no202 on bbl flat straight grip, 1929 stamped under buttplate

#137762 3 digit code 214, no24 on floorplate, 1/2 P/G 1934 under buttplate

#144689, 3 digit code 220, no26 on floorplate, straight grip, no date under B/P

One thing i have noticed is that all 3 guns do not have the normal St Etienne proof marks. The proofs are similar and end saying the same as the normal marks do. I wonder if Manufrance did their own proofing?? The Verney Carron I have has normal St Etienne marks, the MAC has Paris proofs. The gun that is in shipment is a St Etienne gun , it will be interesting to see how it is marked.

With some pooled information we might be able to get an idea of how to determine the age of French guns especially the Manufrance made ones. The best Information on French proofs I have found is in 1970 Gun Digest. the info in the Blue Book is not complete.

I am retired and have plenty of time to compile this in a DB if the guys want to email me the marking and stamp marks on their guns. My Email is in my profile

Jim A.

...why you sandbagger Smile

....I've been sputtering on and on about French guns for a couple weeks, and you've been holdin out on me, just layin in the weeds waitin to make your move Very Happy

....what a great bunch of guns there!! What do they weigh on average? I have a Robust, and it has full scroll coverage and ejectors, must be a little higher grade, but how do you tell the model? It has the raised chambers (meaning the chambers taper down to the bbls), do yours? Is that standard fare on these? I will look under the butt plate and see if there's a date....

I sure like them, and can see I'm not alone!! Tell me more.....

warm regds,

britgun[/quote]

There is a great book about proof marks. I see it available at most gun shows for under $20.00 It's called "The Standard directory of proof Marks". An aweful lot of countries changed their proof marks every few years.If you can't find a copy, send me a PM and I'll xerox the necessary pages and mail them to you.

Proof marks can be a fun way to learn about your old English and Continental guns.But be wary. I have a 5lb. 8oz. 16 ga. with 26" barrels, beautiful high end engraving in the classic Germanic style, horn butt plate and trigger guard, and a German retailers name and address, in gold, on the top rib. The kicker... the proof marks ended up being Belgian. The only clue as to the maker is the initials F,J on the butt plate. One expert I queried believes this gun may have been made by Fusil Jamart. By the way, if anyone has any knowlege about this maker I'd love to hear from you.

*Last edited by britgun on Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total*

I've just aquired an L'abeille 16ga SxS s/n 2427 - it's a great gun, shoots well and is very light. It was proofed in belgium post war if you want to check some Belgium and other foreign marks try the address below.

As far as the gun maker, I haven't been able to find much at all other than it means Honey Bee. Has anyone heard of this gun maker. I know the Engligh makers, but this is my first French gun and there is nothing out there that I can find.
The address on the barrels reads: 81 Rue Turbigo, Paris
Couldn't tell you if it was made there and proofed in Belgium or made in Belgium and sold through this company??

Thanks!
-Justin
https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

I found one of those french guns with the rollup sling in a gun shop. It felt loose when the barrells were closed. So I passed on it. He wanted $799.00 for it. It's 16 gauge. Maybe I should go take another look? Have no idea as to what one of them is worth.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Very tough to date French guns, except an extremely broad ballpark, using proofmarks. Belgian, German, Italian, Spanish, and some British guns have date codes that allow you to be much more precise. (Those anal Germans marked year and MONTH on their guns.) Quite a few Belgian guns were sold in France, even though France had a very active gun industry of its own. I have a neat little 16 with a Paris address on the barrels, but Belgian proofs dating from 1929. Weighs less than 5 3/4 with 27" barrels.

Manufrance (in addition to those weird Darnes Ted likes) was the big French maker. They're still in business, just not selling guns as I understand it. Wonder if they have SN records? You'll also see quite a few Verney-Carrons--and they're still making guns, although OU's rather than sxs. (The last V-C catalog I have shows sxs, but they're made elsewhere in the EU--I'd guess Spain for the cheaper one, Germany for the more expensive one. Too bad, because V-C made nice doubles.) MAC is also common. Other than those names, and the very high dollar French "bests", like Granger, they're mostly small makers no one ever heard of, or no name "guild" guns. I've seen "Abeille" before, but I don't know whether that was a maker or maybe a name a gunshop used. Many times, on French guns, the name on the barrels will be of the gunshop that sold it rather than of the maker.

You'll also run across French guns with some form of the word "Helice" (which means screw or spiral) on the gun, often on the top lever. That's not a maker, but rather refers to the locking mechanism, which was invented by Verney-Carron over 100 years ago. After the patent expired, a lot of "Helice" guns were made, many of them guild guns.

thanks, Larry, French guns are a bit of an anomaly, to be sure.... your info is appreciated.......that one little gun you described that you had..... yum yum

bgun