16ga.com ~ View topic - Old shotguns, old stocks, and old hunting styles

Brad[/quote]
Well, you ARE a Yankee. I wouldn't expect you to be able to hold your mouth right in the first place. I suspect my relatives were shooting at yours back in the War of Northern Aggression for doing the same thing... Wink

Well Sir, me Paternal ancester did not arrive in the States until 1878, well after that damned mess was over. Besides, he was too busy warring with the damned leftie b*stards who were trying unsuccessfully to throw him out of Boston to get mixed up in someone else's scrap.

Now on my Maternal side, we had folks on both sides of the issue. Mom's family includes the Wakefields of both North Carolina and Maine. I don't know what happened to the folks on the Southern side of the M/D line. However, my great grand Dad, Parney was Maine mariner and a gunner's mate on a Northern gunboat. He helped pound the bejabbers out of Mobile and a few other Southern ports.

Some of his kin and other friends from Maine were with Chamberlain at Little Round Top. I don't think you Rebs saw many Yankee backsides that day. Laughing

Slidehammer, Its tough to make a call about how someone is shooting from a still. I hope you get to see the movies of her shooting. Ken Burns did her biography for the national educational network in his American series. It was really excellent. I'm sure you could get a video disc of it. I'm certain you would love it as much as I did. I also think you will come to admire her as much as I do. She is a personal hero and someone I aspire to be like.

As for her shooting style, I think what you are seeing is her dismounting the gun after the shot. If that were a picture of her at the split second she fired the gun, the smoke would be exiting the barrel, and her head would be right down on the stock like anyone else's would. That smoke has risen to several feet over her position. Smoke from a gun does not rise very quickly. It takes over a second to get to that height. I've shot enough sootburners to know this is true.

During a shooting exhibition, a second is a long time, and Ms Oakley would be already handing back her discharged piece to take a freshly loaded one from the guns on the table to her right to bust more targets. This is what you are looking at.

Notice that she is focusing her eyes where the next targets are going to be, not looking at the broken ones. I can tell you from having actually seen the videos of her shooting that she hardly ever glanced away from where her next targets were going to be. She would pick up the next gun in line off the table without looking at it. Also notice that her chin is tucked back a bit and her forehead and eyes are forward of her chin. If her head was bolt upright like you claim, her chin would be even with her forehead. Her head is still in position to come to face on the next gun she mounts because she is already planning another shot. Her shooting exhibition was done at a very rapid and consistant pace. She did not waste a motion or a moment. She was a perfect study of exquisite coordination and precision.

Having both a practiced eye and a practiced mount is one of the secrets to good wingshooting. Find the bird with your eyes first, then bring the gun to your face with your eyes locked on the mark. Never look at the gun, ever. With practice, you can call for a bird with your gun loaded but broken, close the gun, bring it to bear, and break the target. However, to do it, the gun has to come to face and be put in line with what your eye is already looking at. You do not have to look at your gun. However, it takes a practiced shooter with a perfectly coordinated and consistant mount to do it. I shoot this way. I never look at my gun except to glance down the barrels to make sure they are clear of wads. I am always looking at targets, both mine and everyone elses. I am constantly training my eyes to see the mark.

I've also seen several national Olympic champian International skeet and trap shooters put on shooting exhibitions. Both could hit targets from their hip with a shotgun. However, they do not do this when they are shooting for score. I've also seen movies of Ed McGivern in action. He was lightning on two legs with a handgun However, exhibition and trick shooting is done by specialists who have the talent and the time to perfect it. No doubt they wow the crowd. However, I do not know too many even fine game and target shots that can do what these handful of specialists do. I think your corelation is a pretty long stretch.

I have read personal accounts of 19th century lawmen who were actually in close range gun fights using Colt model P revolvers, Remintons, Smith and Wessons, and others. When asked how many bad men they killed with a quick draw or from the hip, every one answered the question the same way. They said that the reason they lived and the other guy died is because they had the nerve to take their time, cock, and aim their gun while the other guy blazed away in a panic at them as fast as he could.

Most accounts of fast draw gun fighters and other nonsense came from the minds of the 5 cent novel writers of the day. These writers created bigger than life heros and villains just like comic book writers do today. Its all myth created to entertain folks and sell novels and comic books. Its pulp fiction.

If I were ever in a serious exchange of gunfire, you could bet the farm that I would either be aiming or running for dear life, but I would not be dumb enough to fill the air with unaimed lead. An empty gun in the hands of a damned fool who just wasted all his rounds helps no one but the other guy Laughing

[quote="dbadcraig"]I think we may be hearing some sour grapes from folks who own (or wish to own) and shoot some really fine old classic shotguns and can't hit anything with them because the "old school" drop is all wrong for them and their well schooled modern technique.

Okay, I admit it. I am all upset that I've passed up about a gazillion of these old doglegged doubles. I'm just jealous as hell of the guys who shoot them. I really miss that ungodly whack on my jaw and the pain in my head from all that drop on the comb line. I really enjoy a terrific gun headache at day's end. I also like being hit by runaway dump trucks too. Yup, sour grapes for sure. Rolling Eyes

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My dear old dad had a saying: "Get a gun and learn to shoot it." Still pretty good advice.

Fin

Fin, your dad was correct. That is good advice. I'm also pretty sure your dad would not want that gun to beat you into submission either.

I once went to our wise old family doctor with a pain in my shoulder. I told him that every time I raised my arm over my head, my shoulder hurt. his anwer was, "If it hurts to do that, then don't do that you young idiot.!" Laughing

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

[quote="16gaugeguy"

As for my shooting ability, maybe someday you might mosey down to my neck of the woods and spend a pleasant morning shooting targets and swapping stories. That way you will see for yourself how I do. I for my part would like to see you in action with your doglegged stocked guns. Perhaps you could educate me in the art of shooting flying. You just let me know when you are coming. I'll be waiting with a welcome for you too.[/quote]

Based upon your 'commanding' presence on this forum, Brad, I would not presume to "educate" you about anything.......

And re: your invitation to this 'OK Corral-like Shoot-out thingy'.....you'd likely have to attend one of our vintage shoots here in the more liberating atmosphere of Montana where we are still considered to be free men by our politicians.

It is pretty much an accepted fact among shooters that law-abiding, white males in the possession of firearms are not exactly 'welcome' crossing the borders of the great State of Massachusetts (well, okay....maybe following a bunch of fees and 'red tape'.....or when leaving).

Oh, never mind that last,..... as you wouldn't be caught owning a vintage gun anyway.

Ok Corral Shootout!!?? I don't think so. What I had in mind is a good time shooting at clay targets together and a pleasant morning of swapping stories and such. Heck, I'd even buy lunch. I don't agree with your taste in guns nor your advice that we'd all shoot better with our heads off the stock, but I don't wish to shoot you over it. I'd expect Montanans are civilized enough to realize that such a response would be a bit extreme, even in Montana.

As for the political situation in MA, I am not responsible for the idiots running this state. I vote every time I can and continously cast a vote against those I have identified as idiots. Its tough to do though since there are so many to choose from.

You might be pleasantly surprised that it is easier for a visitor to our state to cross the border with a long gun than it is for a resident. We just don't allow folks to have them racked across the back window of the PU truck. Put them in a locked case or have a trigger lock on them, unloaded, behind the seat and you will get no flack from anyone. Handguns are a bit different. you must stop at the first State Troopers barracks, and declare you are travelling through with any only if you are. Again, they must be locked and unloaded in a lockable case or have a trigger lock on them. you will also have to show any licences to carry you might have. Thats about it.

You seem like a bright fellow. I have enjoyed trading posts with you, even though you keep drawing the wrong conclusions, try to put words in my mouth, and continue to baffle yourself with the results of your flawed comprehensions. However, if we continue to do so, perhap your reading skills will improve here.

I have no issue with you shooting your doglegged, passe old jaw whackers. This is still a free country. In fact , I also carry Excedrin in my kit regularly now. So I can help you alleviate any gun headache you might get from the pounding you must suffer from shooting your antiques.

I'd love to shoot in Montana at a vintage gun get togther. However, you are quite right. I don't own one that I'd care to shoot. Perhaps I could take one of my older used doubles, doctor it up with some fake rust and old buffalo blood or something to make it look aged and decrepid. Would this be ok?

Anyway, thanks for the invite..I think? Laughing

PS: my name ain't Brad. you really need to focus better when you read. Perhaps you need glasses. That also might explain why you need to lift your head over the gun to see what you are shooting at. Anyway, thanks again.

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

Well "Brad",

My apologies for having your 'given' name wrong, 16gg, as that is how I also read it. But more importantly, it has been a lively and sometimes even interesting discussion that will have to be concluded by us "agreeing to disagree" on vintage gun dimensions and the most effective styles for shooting them.

That's okay by me......

As for our "Great-Shoot-off" you proposed, I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek there without having to paste an 'emoticon' at the end of my farcical sentence.......oh well, again.

And as for my invite for your attending a vintage shoot out this way,.....that was, in fact, sincere. But should you come, expect to see some folks shooting the older stock dimensions (albeit, held a bit lower on their cheeklines) and taking home some prizes with their scores still in the 80's and low 90's.

FWIW, I've never been asked for any aspirin yet at our events.

You be well, and keep breaking those birds while you still can....and that goes for all of us!

All Best,

Robert

Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 23

[quote="16gaugeguy"]