16ga.com ~ View topic - the how and why of shotgun stock evolution further explored

16er, the time frame for this topic is the post-Flintlock era. For all intents and purposes, percussion locks and ignition did this. there is no exposed flash of the priming powder with a cap and nipple.

Wingshooting as we know it today evolved with the advent of percussion locks, because percussion ignition is faster, surer, more consistant, and does not disturb the sighting eye and the shooter like a flint lock will when it goes off. The act of shooting flying is not really any more difficult with a well made, properly loaded percussion double than it is with a breech loader. however the ranfge is limited because these guns did not have any choke. Most percussion doubles had stocks with moderate drop to comb and heel just like most post-1930 doubles.

Shotgun stocks with more drop to comb and and heel did not become popular in the States until just after choke bored barrels became popular. I'm attempting to find a connection between the two. What is it about choke bored barrels that led some shooters to perfer shotguns with more drop to comb and heel? And why did they slowly fall out of favor with most shooters after WWI. It remains a puzzle to me.

I don't know why the amount of drop of a stock has changed. I do know that I shoot better with more modern dimensions. (I don't know why we took almost 100 years for the manufacturing process of automobiles to move away from carriage style chassis and body either... I just don't spend much time thinking about it I guess. But I know I drive unibody vehicles which are safer and handle better) Thanks for bringing it up, hope you find your answers...

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

16gg,
Yes, they are all Parkers.
Only one is a V grade, none are Trojans.
So these guns more than likely were built to a customers specifications.
I don't have factory letters on most of them, but the ones I do have letters for. State that the gun was requested with certain LOP, DAC, and DAH.
For whatever that information is good for. Wink

Well, it certainly reinforces the buyer preference issue the evidence indicates. I wonder what if any, the standard factory drop to comb and heel was for Parker guns. Thanks again. Its been a big help.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

According to The Parker Story, the Trojan which was introduced in 1912.
And for the sake of argument could not be special ordered. Came with about 14" LOP and about 2-3/4" DAH. doesn't mention DAC.
I didn't add the about, that's the way it is stated in there ad.

I'll bet my bippy it is 1-1/2" -1-5/8 depending on gauge. This is typical of so many I've seen. The smaller gauges also tend to have stocks with a bit higher comb. Might have something to do with felt recoil. Anyway ,we are on a roll now. Very Happy

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, I apologize for not having followed this entire discussion. However, can you cite any source for the idea that it was once common to "shoot flying" with one eye closed? Certainly everything in modern shooting literature tells us that we should have both eyes open (unless there's a cross-dominant issue).

Larry, at this point, it is just a hypothesis that perhaps shooting with one eye might have had some influence on stock developement. I am asking those folks who do if they perfer a stock with more or less drop to comb and heel. I am keeping track to see if there is a corelation.

Howeve, I had an interesting conversation with one of my muzzleloading friends who is also a history buff. He is into pre-19th century firearms and prefers flintlocks to percussion guns. He hunts with a 69 .cal (14 bore) fowling piece rather than a rifle and uses shot or patched balls depending on the quarry. He claims folks in the northern climes of America perfered fowlers rather than rifles. Fowlers were much more common, more versitile, as well as cheaper and easier to make, and therefore sell.

Few folks wingshot with fowling pieces. Ball was used for bigger game, and shot for smaller game, waterfowl, and birds. However, few folks tried shooting on the wing. Both shot and powder were always in demand and expensive for Americans. Most powder was imported from England and France until the Dupont family came to America with their technology as a result of the French revolution. Even so, powder making was a verey specialized and restricted profession. It was always scarce. Therefore, most Americans did not waste the very expensive powder learning to wingshoot.

As percussion locks became popular, most older Flint lock fowlers were converted. They retained their rather flat angled, almost horizontal combs with lots of drop to comb and heel. They resembles Tower muskets and Charlevilles. Once Northern American gun smiths began turning out double barreled fowling pieces, theier American customers tended to stay with the same type stocks they were accustomed to. Most Northern American folks still did not do a lot of wingshooting. One barrel was loaded with ball and the other shot. Hunters foraged for whatever was there for the taking. The early doubles were refered to as foraging pieces.

However, as some of the sons of the wealthier English started emmigrating to America at the close of the Napoleonis era to venture into business, commercial agriculture, and the american fur trade, the sport of wingshooting was introduced into the southern states where society was much more receptive to English customs, dress, and pastimes. most rich Southern plantation owners saw themselves as the American landed Aristocracy and were blatant Anglophiles.

Northern Yankees were less receptive. They were much lees imlpressed with English Aristocracy having just defeated the English in two wars. Further, Northern businessmen were in competition with the English in manufacturing, cloth making, ship building, and commercial navigation.

Rich southern plantation owners had the the abundant liesure time slavery allowed them plus the capital to follow such pursuits as sport and social wingshooting. they also perferred to import English shotguns as well as all the other trappings of English Aristocratic fashion and lifestyle. Yankee offerings were considered a poor substitue for the real mcCoy.

Poorer southern folk perferred hunting small game with the ratherr plain small bore percussion southern mountain rifles. Small bore ball shooting rifles were effective on game like squirrels, turkey, and even could down deer with a well placed head or neck shot. They were also much cheaper to shoot, because they used less than half the powder per shot and one third the lead.

After the Civil war, two things occured. First, Yankee businesmen invaded the defeated Southern states to capitalize on the rich pickings available during reconstruction. The second was the advent of the early breech loading doubles. Many of the carpet baggers adopted Southern recreational customs including social bird hunting. They also replaced percussion doubles with breech loading bird guns commonly imported from England. There weren't any southern double gun manufacturers to speak of and Northern domestic breechloading double guns were still a few years away.

When the Connecticutt and New York gun manufacturers first began mass producing the earliest american Breechloading double guns in the late 1860's and early 1870's, they copied English actions, but retained the stock lines of the old Yankee fowling pieces. Wingshooting was still not widely practiced in the Northern states. However, it was beginning to be accepted, because loading and shooting breechloaders was both faster and more convenient for a lone man to do. also ammo was becoming both more common and less expensive as domestic makers starting to produce shot shells.

About 1878, after reconstruction and and after the Northern busnessmen were either accepted and aborbed into Southern society, or were urged to go back North, wingshooting began to take root in areas other than the South. Pheasant were introduced to the Willamet valley in Oregon in the mid 1880's as folks with a taste for sport hunting for birds migrated west.

Then came the Wild West shows. Folks like Annie Oakley, perhaps America's first super star, and other sharpshooting showmen and women exposed millions of hero worshipping Eastern Americans just what could be done with a shotgun. Wingshooting really began to take off, and shotgun stocks started to also evolve into the moderns types we see today. Prior to the mid 1880's most double guns were thought of as scatterguns meant for law enforcement and defence until shooting flying became a commonly accepted way to hunt by the late 1880's and as shotgun target games began to emerge. This was the actually time American bird guns finally began to be accepted as legitimate sporting arms.

By 1900, the majority of higher grade custom stocked guns, bought by serious wingshooters and trap shooters were sporting stock lines very similar to what we have now. By 1920, most of the standard, mass produced stocks also reflected the trend as American wingshooters finally made the switch to modern stock lines designed for wingshooting.

So it seems that rifle stocks had little to no influence on shotgun stocks. Neither did skeet most likey. Rather, easier to shoot with shotgun stocks probably led to skeet rather than the other way around. However, earlier flintlock fowlers produced in the Northern colonies did influence the earliest of our domestic mass produced percussion and breechloading doubles until the mid-1880s.

My friend's take on the issue seems to make sense. The more I considered his point of view and insight, the more things began to snap into place. I think I now have a pretty good idea how American shotgun stocks evolved. Anyway, it is less a puzzle than it used to be. I'm not claiming this is the last word on the subject, but this line of thought certainly makes sense both logically and historically.

Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 23

You are probably right in that stocks with a lot of drop do not offer any advantage to a one eyed shooter. Some folks with a longer than average face or distance from the cheek to the pupil of their eye would naturally do better with more drop to comb and face. Those who have average to small facial structures need lees drop. It is probably mostly a physiological issue morethan anything.

It also points to the fact that most folks should be fitted to a stock before buying a shotgun rather than chancing money on one. only to find out it is not suitable for their facial structure. Chances are they would not have the experience to know why and might keep making the same mistake until they give up, adapt and shoot uncomfortably, or finally luck into a gun that does fir them.

However, if you read my last post, I think you might come to some understanding how shotgun stocks evolved in America into the typical mass produced model of today. It was form following function after all as shotguns were adapted for different uses and as hunting and shooting practices changed.

However, just as folks' choices in gun stocks and guns were predjudiced by their culture, and their own experiences in the past, so too will this continue today. Some folks think their views and their tastes and needs in guns are universal. Others are less provincial and realize that there is no such thing as the universal shotgun stock. Still others have other reasons for pushing their views on folks like those who have a big investment in older double guns and are in the business of buying and selling them. Some of these folks would like us to believe that only shotguns with lots of drop to comb and heel are suitable for wingshooting. Still others are just plain hardheaded, stubborn, and blind to the needs of other folks and maybe even their own. So this topic will be debated for a long time to come. such is the human condition.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, I'm not sure when I'd peg the transition to stocks with less drop, but I think 1900 is WAY too early, at least for American doubles. Don't think I've ever found an Ithaca Flues on which I could see any rib at all, and they were made up to 1925. Pretty much the same thing with old Parkers, although I think with Parkers, you may find more guns on which customers ordered custom stock dimensions. Foxes seem to be a bit better, but as late as 1940, the advertised standard drop was 2 3/4", which is more than most modern shooters would like. They made a slight modification on the Sterlingworth "Skeet and Upland Game Gun", which had an advertised drop of 2 5/8". Parker skeet guns were a good bit straighter, with a standard drop of 2 1/4" at heel. (Skeet was shot "low gun" in those days, so one didn't have the advantage of today's premount.) Standard drop on Parker field guns at the time was 2 1/2". Likewise, the straight grip Winchester Model 21 skeet gun had a drop of only 2", compared to 2 3/8-2 7/16 (depending on gauge, for some reason) in Model 21 field guns. LC Smith's Hunter Special had a drop of 2 3/4". So even as late as 1940--although Win 21's had modern dimensions, as did standard-stocked Parkers by that time--there were still a lot of field gun stocks with quite a bit of drop, but the then-new game of skeet--featuring guns with less drop--may have been having some influence on standard stock dimensions.

Larry, Don't you think drop to comb is more significant to where your eye sits in relation to the rib? If you examine the list of stock dimensions and dates Dave M kingly provided, then line them up from the oldest to the newest, I think you will see how stock dimensions progressed from a lot of drop at both comb and heel through progressively less drop at comb. Drop at heel eventually also followed the progrersion upwards.

Look at the 1878 and 1879 models. They have drops to comb of 2" and 1/3/4" respectively. The 1878 model ha a drop to heel of only 5/8" more.
I've seen old muskets, trade guns, and fowlers with this configuration. I've also seen quite a few pre-1880 doubles with very similar stocks. A fellow would need a very long face to be able to wingshoot effectively and comfortably with them. I think most were used for foraging or defence and were not considered true bird guns.

As for stock evolution and basic, non-custom, production stocked ecomomy grade guns like Sterlingworths and Trojans, most of theses economy guns trailed behind custom stock lines. That is understandable for a number of reasons.

The most obvious is the lack of understanding and unwillingness of the less informed and less well heeled gun buying public to change. Such folks have always been the last group to adopt a more advanced, improved article.

On the other hand, those folks with the time and money to become more involved in their avocations always seem to be out front on the learning curve. These folks who probably learned to wingshoot from either professional teachers, or their peers were ordering higher grade guns with more suitable stock lines for more effective and more comfortable shooting before the turn of the last century. Eventually the knowledge and the more advanced, and more suitable stock styles deseminated downwards from the upper classes to the lower classes as is usual in almost any reasonably free society.

You and I have both witnessed this play out in our own lives. Look at competition guns. Adjustable stocks, backboring, porting, and lengthened cones have been around since the late 1960's. Quite a few of the professional and the better amatuer shooters adopted them long ago. However, they remained custom modifications for decades until the average competition gun buyer caught on that these modifications had some positive effects on shooting and scores. Now, everyone but the most reactionary diehards want them on their guns and manufactures are offering them as standard options now.

Same for O/U guns. Some folks learned early of th advantages and others are stilll learning. There are folks who will never adopt them. Same old same old, Larry. It's been going on since matchlocks were replaced by firelocks and will continue as we start moving away from mechanical ignition guns with their primers and strikers into electronic ignition guns that fire by an electrical current. They are here now. Eventually they will replace our present guns. We will mourn the passing but eventually will adopt the more advanced articles. And so it goes.

As for the dates each manufacturer dropped the old dogleg stocks, some never did, but they also passed into history along with their antiquated ideas. Others adapted earlier but still passed into history as repeaters and O/U shotguns replaced SxS double guns.

We see a minor resurgence in SxS guns today. It ebbs and flows, especially in the smaller gauge guns. However, few if any of these newer offerings retain the stock lines of their predesessors. They all sport stocks with less drop to comb and heel. They are also a darn sight easier to hit with for most of us. A few of us with very long faces need a stock with a lot of drop to comb and heel, but now, these are the stocks that must be ordered custom. Time, experience, and knowledge have educated the majority, and the majority have moved on. Those that wish to stay behind may do so. Thankfully, its still a free country.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, in 1940 (boy, my old 1940 Shooters Bible comes in handy!), drop wasn't much different on the pumps and OU's listed than it was the doubles.
And it's not unusual to find DAC greater than 1 1/2, along with DAH greater than 2 1/2, on guns other than doubles:

Rem 31 pump--1 5/8-2 1/2. Rem 32 OU and Model 11 Auto--same.
Savage 420/430 OU (one of 2 American-made OU's at the time)--1 5/8-2 3/4
Win 97--1 3/4-2 3/8 (now there's a strange one!)
Ithaca 37--1 5/8-2 3/4

Many others only give DAH, which is quite often 2 3/4 (on magazine guns as well as doubles). And interestingly enough, even when DAH is 2 1/2 (as on the Rems), DAC is often 1 5/8--which, again, many shooters today would find too low.

So it does not appear that the changeover to pumps and autos (OU's hadn't made much in the way of inroads by 1940) had a lot of impact on raising stock dimensions. Skeet guns, on the other hand, were generally higher stocked.