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A friend of mine showed me his deceased father's Ithaca side by side. It's a 16 gauge, and he told me he was going to start shooting it again after many years of not shooting it. I asked him what the chamber length is on the gun. He thought if a 2 3/4 inch shell fit in the chamber without sticking out, that it was a 2 3/4 inch chamber. I explained to him the shell length is measured after it is shot, with the crimp extended. He indicated he has shot 2 3/4 inch shells out of it in the past with no problem, and intended to do the same again. I cautioned him against this until he has determined the true chamber length of this gun. I suggested he take it to a competent gunsmith to determine this, but doubt that he will.

So, with the following description of the gun and serial number, can anyone give an educated guess as to its chamber length?
Ithaca SxS, 16 gauge, serial number 263811. On the side of the receiver it has "Ithaca Gun Co, Ithaca, NY, and a profile view of a setter. On the barrels is stamped "smokeless powder steel".

I know nothing about these older Ithaca SxS's, or even what year the standard chamber length became 2 3/4 inches for 16 gauge guns. I hate to show my ignorance so publicly, but I figure this is the place to get good information. My friend was even talking about his daughter using this gun, and I sure don't want to see an accident occur. He is just stubborn enough to continue using the 2 3/4 inch shells because he got away with it in the past, without having the gun checked out.

So if any of you can help I would certainly appreciate it. I'm guessing it may be a Flues model with the shorter 2 9/16 inch chamber, but I just don't know. I'm hoping that by the serial number, the year of manufacture can be determined, and that might give a clue as to chamber length. Thanks in advance.

It's a Flues model made in 1915, most certainly started with 2 9/16" chambers, and he's more likely to crack the stock first BUT esp small frame Flues do have a reputation for cracked frames.
Please see http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1983
Bottom line: pressures increase only a little shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 9/16" chambers but recoil can increase alot.

Rev,
Thanks for the great information. With your help I think I finally got his attention. I very much appreciate your response.

Regards,
Grousen

Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Michigan

Alright you guys. You got my attention too.

I've been told my old Tobin probably has short chambers. I cannot tell by measurement with any means available to me because the forcing cone is very smooth and gradual, and I cannot "feel" it with any sort of improvised feeler tool. Does anyone know a way to measure the chambers at home? I just cannot (will not) take the gun to any so-called "gunsmith." I have seen the work of some "gunsmiths" and have long since chosen to do my own work.

Also, I would appreciate any credible info, or reference to such, on making ammo suitable for 2-1/2" chambers from 2-3/4" plastic hulls. The very worst thing one could say is "it cannot be done" because it would then become my life's work to prove them wrong. Very Happy

Here you go BR
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2571

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

If you cannot feel the forcing cone on your Tobin it may have been honed a mbunch to get rid of pitting. That's reason enough to find someone with a wall thickness gauge and check it.

Regarding cutting shells down. You can cut down most plastic hulls and reload. It's easy. You can use anythinig from an exacto knife to a table saw. (yes, I said table saw)

BUT, the most important thing is not the shell length, it's the pressure of the load. Yes shell length will make pressure problems about 10% worse, but you still need loads (pressure) that are appropriate to the gun.

Viva la "16 Ga Low Pressure Group"

Jeff

Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Michigan

LILB. What a simple solution. Wish I'd thought of it.

I performed said 3x5 card trick. There's good news and bad.....Okay, first the good: The card trick worked pretty well, and didn't cost a dime. It took a few tries to be relatively comfortable that I was stopping at the beginning of the end of the chamber, but in the end, I got identical measurements from both barrels, which is indicative of proper technique. The bad news is that both chambers measured right at 2-5/8". Given the stated margin for error inherrent in the technique, the chambers are not longer than 2-9/16", and may actually be 2-1/2". Drat. No more cheap-and-easy shooting.

Now, to find (or make) ammo appropriate to the weapon. I will do the prescribed internet searches for ammo and/or recipes. Again, any known, credible data for low-pressure 2-1/2" 16ga recipes or loaded ammo is appreciated. I've been known to share a cherished game covert or two with helpers of the highest order (and moderate expectations).

BR: glad that worked out Very Happy

Bottom line again (and I'm NOT the reloading guru!) is that shooting a 2 3/4" shell in your chamber is going to raise pressure very little if at all, so all you need to do is load low pressure 2 3/4" shells.
Having said that, I'd repeat that 2 3/4" target loads in my 22' 20g Trojan with chambers more like 2 3/8" had wicked recoil and I very much suspect the hull mouth was opening up into the forcing cone.

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

Big Redhead,

Some european 16's were chambered 2 5/8" (67mm). I bought (inadvertantly) a case of B & P short shells which were advertised as 2 1/2" but which were in fact 67mm or 2 5/8" and were marked that way when I got them. B & P is Baschieri & Pellagri. I haven't checked their web site recently, they may still sell these.

Of course, you can always use any of the 2 9/16" shells available, such as Gamebore, RST, etc or learn how to load your own. Join our low pressure group. BPI sells a 16 ga manual which lists 65mm and 67mm loads, but I have not found the ones I have tried to be workable.

The real problem is not chamber length however, it is load pressure. You need to find out how that gun of yours was proofed, what its pressure rating is and stay reasonably below what you learn.

P

Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Michigan

Another member of this site has advised me to keep the pressure at or below 5000 psi, and to shoot only short shells (e.g. 2-1/2"). He said that the gun was made before the advent of standardized pressures and that repeated firing of loads with pressure higher than 5000 psi will damage the gun and maybe the shooter. This advice seems logical to me, and I have no reservations with shooting light loads as the gun will only be pointed at thundering brown blurs, timberdoodles, and bunnies. The only problem I have is that I can no longer shoot shells easily obtained from Wally World at for $3.99 a box. RST only sells case lots, and there's no dealer in short low-pressure ammo by the box within justifyable driving distance.

It appears that the load data I request is safeguarded by the requisite $20 entry in "the club." Well, I just cannot do that right now as I am between jobs. Maybe some other time. Thanks.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

You will be hard pressed to find very many 16 gauge loads under 5000 PSI.
Even when reloading your own, very few are this low.

*Last edited by revdocdrew on Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total*

BR: please see this thread http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2410
The Polywad 'Vintager' runs 6500 psi and the excellent RST 1 oz load is 7600 psi-both are great choices for classic American SxSs.

Here's a pic of a cracked frame Flues:
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?&p=999&uid=6511424&gid=13813549&&imgid=207433480&offset=545

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Redhead, you will not find ANY 16ga loads below (or even really close to) 5,000 psi. If you've got a gun that's unsafe with loads above 5,000 psi, you've got a gun that's unsafe--PERIOD. If your Tobin is in shootable condition, most likely you're OK with loads close to twice that in pressure. When your Tobin was made, standard service pressure for the 16 was about 10-10,500 psi, or about 1,000 psi lower than it is today. With old guns, it's better to err on the safe side. The loads recommended above will get you there; the cheapies from Wally World will not, although you can reload hulls from Wally World cheapies to pressures of 8,000 psi or less, with 7/8 oz shot, and they'll work fine in that gun--assuming it's in shootable condition.