16ga.com ~ View topic - Cast-off/Cast on

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

"Cast off is the lateral deviation of the buttstock from the line of sight", says Fred Missildine in his 1960's era book, "Score Better At Skeet". Quoting further, he states "It is supposed to enable you to face your target squarely and to minimize the need to incline your head." Since this is just about the end of his remarks on the subject, I'm led to ponder a bit about the significance of cast off/cast on. How necessary is such an adjustment? Is cast-off for right handed shooters and cast-on for left handed shooters? I'd be surprised if it were that simple. More to the point, I'm looking at a Browning B-125 O/U with stock dimensions very close to what I normally shoot best. BUT the gun features an additional dimension of 1/8" cast off...how much difference if any, should this make in the way the gun fits? I am a right-handed shooter. The gun is pricey and I don't want to make a mistake...anyone have hard knowledge/experience they can share on this particular aspect of shotgun fit?

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Off is for righties, on for lefties--and that part of it is just that simple. However, how much of it an individual needs will vary significantly, from none to quite a bit. And some people--lots of Americans, in fact, because relatively few of us ever use the services of a professional fitter--learn to do a good job of adjusting to stocks that don't really "fit".

A pretty good ballpark test, for both drop and cast, is to close both eyes as you mount the gun. If, when you open them, you're looking straight down the rib--and you see enough of it, but not too much--then the gun is likely a decent fit, although probably not perfect. If you're consistently off to one side when you do this test, then you have a cast issue.

How much you need depends on a bunch of factors: your facial contour and length of your neck being a couple of the most important ones. Women shooters often have different cast issues due to . . . different "equipment" the Good Lord issued them, sometimes resulting in mounting obstacles. Gun mounting, that is. Smile

In my own case, I can usually do OK with guns that are cast neutral (none at all) out to maybe 3/8" maximum. But it depends somewhat on the gun, and I rely more on my "ballpark" test above than I do on measurements.

And sometimes the whole cast business can be quite surprising. Years ago, I saw a nice Browning Superposed 20ga sitting in a gun store, tagged with what was a ridiculously low price, even back then. "It's got quite a bit of cast on," the guy told me. And it was obvious, just from looking at the stock, that it did. But I asked to look at it anyhow, and I'll be darned if I couldn't mount the thing with a good sight picture every time I tried my "ballpark" test. Ended up buying it and shooting it pretty well--but I'm still not sure why that gun worked for me.

Wolf, 1/8" cast is not very much. But try my little test above, and try mounting other guns that are cast neutral to see if there's any difference.

Everything Larry said is dead on. I'm a left handed shooter with not too much coordination. After I got measured I started hitting better. But, as I got older and developed "Jowels" - chubby cheeks, I found I needed more cast. Cast on that is.

Tell the seller your concern, and ask for an inspection as well as shoot period. Discuss the shells you're going to use, and remember... if you scratch it you own it. If you discuss your concerns, shells and explain the scratch issue, AND if the seller is fair-minded, you should have no problem.

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

Larry and Prussian: THANK YOU for the very prompt and very clear insight into this little-discussed issue of gun fit. I am not close enough geographically to examine this gun yet, but when the time comes, I don't think inspection priveleges will be a problem, and I will have an informed perspective on the situation. Thanks again---

Wolf,
Just a side mention - I have broad shoulders with a large collar bone - I was fitted for 3/8 to 1/2" cast because of that. I don't have the jowels YET, but if you've been properly fitted, you can shop for guns by your measurements to help eliminate guns that you'd have to adjust to rather than one that "feels" good off the bat. The gun stock can be adjusted, but a word of caution on cast - if you have to go too far or if the gun has a cheap quality wood it may want to go back to it's original position. Watch the drop also - if you need excessive drop, you may have to adjust by leaning into the gun more. Good luck!
Justin

Good Morning Guys
I echo Larrys thoughts,I stand relaxed with the gun open barrels resting on my right foot ,close my eyes ,raise and close the gun in one movement pushing the saftey off at the same time,when the gun is mounted open your eyes and check your sight plane do this a couple of times then put the gun down and go and do something else for a while then come back and try again latter.the reason for the break is so that you don't subconsciously crane your neck to make the correct sight plane.
A lot of English guns have a cast built in so when you through them up they seem to fit.
Also like larry I have a gun with so much cast you can shoot round corners.
It is an A.Hollis 12 bore rifle with a 15 'LOP and 7/8" cast but it fits so well and because it is a rifle it has express sights and they line up perfectley,as I shoot this in compertition in the bore gun event at the Big Game Rifle club,there is a timed sequence and you have to be pretty slick in mounting an getting your shots away and this rifle comes up dead straight there is no searching for the back sight.One thing that intrigues me is th at the previous owner must have been a big bastard

Most repeaters have a nuetral cast. We can get by with a neutral stock here on a single barrel gun with a low rib, because we can cant the gun a bit without significantly throwing the pattern off left or right. Canting a double gun can cause problems with centering the patterns. Same with an O/U gun. This is why we see cast off or cast on on many double barreled guns.

Some nuetral stocks have an ample butt width which allows the manufacturer extra wood to taper the stock comb toward the dorsal line on both sides, which in effect gives the stock some cast to either side. ruger uses this technique on their guns. they also mount the recoil pad with the toe to the right a bit. A leftie can just shift the toe to the left for a better fit for his left slanting shoulder pocket.

I have gotten into the habit of mounting or remounting the recoil pad on a pump or autoloader so the toe slants a bit down to the right since I'm a rightie and my shoulder pocket slants right.

If you have ample wood on a stock and you are having difficulty getting the gun squarely to face, tapering the onside of the comb toward the front might help. Just be careful not to dish the stock out. don't give the comb a knife edge either. Remove the wood with a rasp a bit at a time. Leave the comb both smoothly contoured toward the front and well rounded so the top and side of the comb tends to come back and away from your face when the gun is fired. Dishing a stock or giving the comb a knife edge will increase felt recoil like nothing else will. Toeing the pad a bit will help too in this case.

Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Michigan

Length of neck is indeed a drop at heel issue which makes it a drop at comb issue on a straight stock.

So it is with cast on a straight stock as the cast will vary where the cheek lies on the comb.

Which length of pull effects, too, where the cheek lies. A longer LOP might have the cheek farther back where the cast is greater.etc.

Stance ( how open or closed to the target) is the principal determinant of LOP ; more closed --more length of pull; more open less length of pull.

Someone needing more drop can sometimes correct the gun mount by "rolling the shoulders" when the elbows are elevated from their sides upon mount. This places the cheek farther back where the cast and drop are more, all things equal.

It all works together; one affects the other.

So, there is an order to this universe: mount and pitch, then drop at heel, then drop at comb, then cast, and finally length of pull. Fitting is a process, not an event.

I cannot take credit for this knowledge as I read Rollin Oswald's treatise over and over and over...

Kivaari,

When I read your post I was reminded of the old joke about the guy sees a suit on sale but finds out it's made wrong: one leg too short, one arm too long, etc. But it's such a good price, and the tailor says, "Well, if you hold your right arm up a little, and bend your left knee" and so on and so on "no one will ever know."

So the guy buys the suit, and he's walking down the street in this strange posture, and a couple guys see him. "Look at that poor guy," one fellow says. "Yeah," says the other, "But that suit sure fits him good!"

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread; it just reminded me Very Happy

!

Fin

Funny...

Ironically, the guy in the suit is contorting his body to fit a ill fitting gun.

I'm not an expert, but I'd wager that most gun fitters see poor gun mounting skills....

Rolling the shoulder is a solution for some on straight stocks creating a natural pocket for mount consistency as the elbows need to rise regardless for "turret" movement at the waist....reducing an egregious drop at heel.

This is to what the above poster was referring by "leaning into the gun more", I think.