16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 36 Location: Southern Indiana

I'm sure this will cause some debate, and that is what I want. I would like opinions on what you believe the best over and under 20 or 16 gauge is and why? I'm looking to buy one, and I would like to stay under $2,000, but if you feel you know of one that cost $10,000 that is worthy of mentioning I would like to hear about it too.

hard to go wrong with a Browning Citori...

Not a lot available in newer 16ga O/Us in your price range, but the Browning would be an excellent choice. Another option is Rizzini which looks to be very nice guns although they start around $3000. Here's their website:

http://www.rizziniusa.com/shotguns.htm

In used 16s, there are Merkel, Simsons, and various Belgian guns.

There are many 20ga options available, but this is a 16ga BBS. Laughing

Good luck!

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

The Rizzini's actually start under $2K with the Omnium, but you dont see many around. The Aurum and Aurum Light start in the $2,300-2,400 range. Most will be on a 12ga. frame.

Here are a couple available @ Gunbroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=66469731
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=66273869
FAIR
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=65604501
http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976743517.aspx

There is also the Traditions Real 16:
http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Shotguns%3A+Real+16

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

There are certainly more 16ga Citoris out there than anything else. You might also look at the I. Rizzini (FAIR) 16's. Cabela's has them in various grades. They're lighter than the Citoris (except the Lightning Feather), if that's important to you.

You'll sometimes see a used Merkel 16 for under $2,000. Thad Scott had one recently, but it sold. Francotte and other Belgian makers made OU's that look quite a bit like Merkels, and if they're not Francottes (in which case you pay a premium for the name), sometimes you can pick one up for a very reasonable price.

Probably the biggest bargain of them all is the Marlin 90, when you can find one in 16. Not a very good looking gun, but they're light and rugged.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Larry, Larry, Larry, there you go again making the little 90 a wallflower Sad

Yep they're rugged, light, generally trouble free, and have extractors---gee what do you want to do gaze at it or shoot it? Razz

The 16's are on what you probably would consider a 20ga frame and, if required, can be repaired by anyone who knows how to hold a screwdirver. So there. Laughing

Browning Citori Grade I 16 ga w/ 26" or 28" barrels. 26" models average 6-1/2 pounds. Average price, under $1700 NIB. The 28" models average 6-3/4 pounds. Both handle, balance, and swing very well. All come with Invector chokes, single selective trigger, selective ejectors. The guns are warrented under Browning USA and Browning has its own service and repair facility in Arnold, MO. They have the best factory service available in this country IMO. Nobody stands behind their product better, longer, and more consistantly.

Buy a Fair or a Rizzini and you might end up chasing your tail if warranty service is needed. These guns have been imported by at least four different companies in the last 10 years. Nobody knows who services what with them half the time. Getting parts can be iffy and quality control runs hot and cold. I've seen too many with questionable barrel sets. Some folks with a good one really like them. I've seen too many end up on the used rack due to service problems and frustration.

If you like to gamble, get a Fair/Rizzini. If you like a truely dependable gun with a well backed no hassle warrenty, get a Browning. Just my opinion based on experience.

Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 68 Location: MN

Gander Mountain in Mn has a Browning 16ga straight stock for $1699.00 new in the box if there's one close they may ship it to the store? FYI

Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 694 Location: MN

You can't go wrong with most of what has been mentioned. But there are some real deals in lesser known names that don't have the market "buzz".

Simpson-made with the same mechanics as Merkel but they don't command the prices. Should be able to get a VERY nice o/u with all the features and game scene engraving for well under $2000.

AYA and Ugartachea made some Merkel knockoffs for a while and they were very good for less than half the price (better than the Coral of today). From across the table its tough to tell the difference.

The lock up on these German action guns is a vault compared to the Italian makes or current day Brownings - double top tang and bottom lug. They will weigh 6-8 oz more than the names you know (but still well under 7 lb). They will also last 1-2 generations longer-and there is something about those game scene relief engravings that just says quality.

(Boy am I gonna get kicked around the block for this post Laughing

)

Ah Hell I'll throw my 2 cents in. Take a look at the DeHaan site. Mark will stand behind em and they shot. I've got a SO SxS in 16ga. and would buy another. The model U1 prices at $679 plus shipping. Only comes with fixed chokes in 16.
It's another option and good luck with what ever you decide to buy Wink

Charlie

Guest

Have any of you looked in the mirror lately? Are your eyes stacked on top of each other? Why do your gun barrels look that way? It's obvious to anyone with blinders on, like me, the best over/under is a side by each.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, you keep talking about service for the FAIRs. Note I pointed out that Cabela's sells them. You buy a gun from Cabela's, you have a problem, you take it back and Cabela's will either get it fixed for you, or they'll refund your purchase price. I have significant experience dealing with them--not specifically with a FAIR that had a problem, but have done literally dozens of other gun deals with them. They're currently fixing a problem on an LC Smith 16 I bought from them. LC Smiths aren't made any more either, but a competent gunsmith can fix just about anything--whether it was made 100 years ago or whether it was made yesterday. Unless a particular make and/or model of gun has a history of problems--which you should avoid, just like a make/model of car that has a high % of "lemons"--there's no reason not to buy from a place like Cabela's. Lots of very good guns (in addition to FAIRs) have gone through a number of American importers. V. Bernardelli is a recent example. Miroku, the company that makes Citoris, also imported their guns under the Charles Daly name (almost certainly not the same Charles Daly entity doing business today) as well as Montgomery Ward--before they struck a deal with Browning. Having more than one importer, or not having a current importer, is no reason not to buy a gun--if you like it, and especially if from a dealer that stands behind what they sell.

If we're talking 16ga OU's, not sure I've ever seen a Simson, although I've seen some 12's, and expect 16's are out there. Pretty sure I've never seen an AyA or Ugartechea-made Merkel clone in 16, although again I have seen them in 12, and I think maybe a couple in 20.

Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 27 Location: UTAH

I just purchased a Browning Citori 525 Sporting with 30" ported barrels. I paid $2700 off Gunbroker.com. However, I was told that it was one of only three produced by Browning in 2006. They did make 11 - 16's in the Citori 525 field version in 2006. So, I'm not sure, but it looks like they may be hard to find. (At least brand new in the box). I've had several offers to puchase mine...but it's not going anywhere. If you go with a 20 gauge, they're a dime a dozen...so to speak. No problem finding one of those. You can pick one up NIB for around $2400. Guess it's all your preference. I personally love the looks and feel of the 525. Good Luck.

Larry, you always seem to take the easy road on these issues. Its easy to profess these guns as good when you have not put the money on the table. You have professed ignorance about them having not bought one. So you have avoided the risk of offending anyone with the facts. I'm not saying you do this intentionally, but you seem to do it consistantly. Cool

I on the other hand, have spoken up for what I know to be true. I might risk offending those who have been lucky enough to buy a Rizzini/Fair without problems, but I'm telling everything I know to help others make an informed choise. There are a considerable number of folks less fortunate than you who have been fortunate.

I asked Cabela's last year about a new Fair/Rizzini 16 ga. O/U. I was almost considering buying one. Here is what I was told. All Cabela's can do is take the Fair or Rizzini back if there is an obvious flaw. They cannot fix them. They cannot and will not help with any hidden flaws that do not show up immediately. If the buyer uses it, and something breaks, or later becomes aware of a problem not immediately apparent, he is on his own and will have to pay for any repairs. The guns Cabela's has were bought as distressed merchandise, do not come with a warranty, and are sold as is.

I recall we even had a member buy one from them and not get the choke tubes that were supposed to come with it. Cabela's could not even help him find a choke tube for the gun. One of the other members here was of more service to this man than Cabela's was. What does this tell you?

I personally can't afford to gamble several thousand dollars under these terms and conditions. and I don't miss too much when it comes to flaws. What about a new buyer? What would you tell this guy? Is the gun worth the gamble? Would you buy one under these conditions? If so, why not so far?

You mentioned the "lemon" factor. I've seen enough Rizzini/Fair lemons to avoid them. I personally know of three older Rizzini O/U guns (not 16 ga.) sitting in a closet broken and unused because the owners have been stonewalled about warrantee service and can't get a straight answer about parts availability. God only knows how much it will cost them if they do find out who can.

I also know of another 20 ga. O/U made by Rizzini for a German outfit here in the states. The gun is one of the Lion series and has been to the warranty station three times for failing to arm the second barrel. It still will not work quite right. The warranty station has not been able to get the parts and keeps trying to fix the flawed ones-- so far, not too well either. How many times would you send one back before you gave up in disgust?

Rizzini has changed importers several times. None of them wants to take the responsibility to help get the guns fixed, nor did any of the former ones set up a reliable warrenty service or stock sufficient parts. So the owners just give up out of frustration.

I also know of several dealers who quit selling them because of this. Kittery Trading Post will not stock them under any circumstances except as used. They have a used Artemus 12 gauge model in stock with barrels so crooked, the shot will probably do loops when you fire it. It just sits there, month after month. I think LL Bean gave up on them too. How much evidence do we need?

Browning will stand behind their guns for at least several years. I've had them fix problems four or five years down the road for no more than shipping cost to the Arnold, MO facility. They will always find a way to make things right. How can you beat that kind of service. Parts are also available in the aftermarket for even the oldest Citori and superposed guns around.

Some, but not all guns can be fixed reasonably. Some can't. If parts are not available, then the parts must be hand fashioned. This is not always cost effective or even possible. Who wants to spend a wad fixing a gun that is not worth the cost of the repairs on the used gun market.?

Older Fair and Rizzini guns are hardly a classic American double gun. Their value will probably continue to decline as their questionable reputation continues to erode their value. This does not happen with a Citori that has had reasonable care. They have continuously gained value. It is totally obvious why.

I'll stand pat on my position. Shooting the messenger might make some of you folks happy, but it won't change the facts. Rolling Eyes

Browning is less expensive for a comparable model, better made, better backed. and retains its used value better year after year. Fact, not unsupported opinion. Sometimes the truth hurts, but mostly, it helps bullet holes and all. Wink