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Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, sometimes your computer ends up with a severe case of keyboard diarrhea. Give it some Pepto-Bismol, would you?

And you might want to start by not ASSUMING things. I most certainly never said that I never bought a FAIR. I have, in fact, owned 3 or 4 of them. And have shot a couple others at skeet. I have also owned 3 or 4 Citoris--so I guess that makes me at least as well qualified as you to hold forth on the matter.

The fact that I did not keep any of the FAIRs (or any of the Citoris, for that matter) doesn't mean I had problems with them. I didn't--not with any of them. Just didn't fall in love with any of them either, and when something came along that I liked better, away they went.

Don't know who you spoke with at Cabela's, but again, I'm sure I have more experience dealing with them than you do. They replaced a stock that broke--on a "used" gun--no cost to me. I knew they'd take the gun back and give me a refund, but replacing the stock . . . I'd say that's above and beyond. And I've bought enough guns from them to know that they will stand behind what they sell. I've had problems show up months after I bought a gun (I think almost all my purchases from them have been used), and they will either refund my money or fix the problem. I've never heard them say they couldn't or wouldn't fix ANY gun, if that's what the customer wants. The only part of your statement that I agree with is that they purchased those guns from another gun shop rather than directly from FAIR. Therefore, they're not sold as "new" guns, but "as new"--with the original box, paperwork, etc.

And you apparently are unaware of it from your rambling post, Guy, but there is more than one Rizzini out there. Whatever the problem with an Artemus, that has NOTHING to do with FAIR. FAIR is I (as in Isidoro) Rizzini. Artemus is B. Rizzini. Two different companies. For that matter, especially if you look at used guns, you will find other Rizzinis in the gun business. Very common in Italy. True also with Bernardelli (I can think of 3 different Bernardelli makers) and Zoli. The guns LL Bean gave up on--and I believe that was an importer issue with SIG, not with the maker--were, once again, B. Rizzini guns. Still imported, by William Larkin Moore, who is a pretty darned reputable dealer.

And Citoris are scarcely trouble-free, although I also believe them to be good guns for the money. But there's a thread on another forum here about problems with Citori forends. Gee, if they were perfect, they shouldn't come from the factory that way, I guess.

So yes Guy, I have owned both FAIRs and Citoris. And I also know there is a difference between the B. Rizzini and FAIR guns--as in two different companies involved. Sorry you got some of your facts wrong, and didn't sort out those differences in your tirade.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

Not to jump into the soup but I have had fantastic luck with Rizzini B. I think they all produce good guns. Having owned Browing, Beretta Rizzini, Ruger, Zoli, Guerini, Perazzi, Gamba and others I can tell you that the Rizzini B. has been the best gun I ever bought as compared to the amount of money spent.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, which Cabela's rep did you talk to? If I'm buying a gun from one of their Gun Libraries, I'm going to deal with one of the guys in charge. If you go to their website, you'll find one or two names for each GL. Those, IMO, are the guys to deal with if you have any questions or problems.

I have a number of friends who have dealt with Cabela's (mostly--but not all--the same GL as I have), and I don't believe you'll find a complaint among 'em. And they're not writers. Darn . . . I wish you'd asked about the Rota. I would've told you I'd heard of problems with those guns.

I think you're going to have a Cabela's fairly close to you before long. What I do, when I see a gun on their website that interests me, is that I have it shipped to their Owatonna, MN store--closest one to me. I've bought guns "long distance" before, and mostly had good results, but I've had enough issues that I'd much rather play touchy-feely with the gun before I commit to buying it. Have had friends do the same thing. They ship guns between their stores all the time, and they'll ship about anything except consignment guns if someone expresses an interest in looking at the gun. No commitment to buy required.

And I try not to "jump" anyone else's posts, although I will express different opinions and experiences, and I'll certainly try to set things straight when it's a matter of confusion between two different gunmakers. Confusing B and I Rizzini is a bit like confusing a Superposed with a Citori, because they both say Browning.

Guest

Larry and Guy both have more experience than me, but I can honestly say my experiences with both B.Riz and I.Riz guns have been fine.

I'll set my SIG TR20U (a B.Riz gun) 20 gauge, purchased for full list retail ($1,800) in April 2001, next to any Citori priced within $1,000 of it. It's certainly the equal. Shoots dead on, too. My brother has been toting a Sig TR30U in 20 ga. (same mechanicals, but nicer exterior touches than my TR20U) for about three years and has had the same experience. And neither of us has ever had a bobble of any kind with factory ammo.

Of the two I.Riz (FAIRs), I've owned, both shot where I looked. One, with 26" barrels, had a loose forearm, but any local smith could have fixed that. However, I sent it back to Cabela's (and it had been shot) for a full credit on another gun with 28" barrels. Delighted with its performance to date. My experiences with Cabela's would tend to affirm what Larry said: Deal with the Gun Room manager at the store, and you'll be treated well.

Guy says he calls 'em as he sees 'em about the Rizzini guns, and I believe him. But I add two things. (1) I've never seen another poster anywhere as consistently down on the O/Us by B.Riz and I.Riz as Guy. (2) The other side of the coin, not often mentioned on this board, would be the many owners of B.Riz and I. Riz O/Us who are very happy with their guns. See the "Rizzini" and "Verona" boards on shotgunworld.com for some reading. Be sure to check the sticky at the top of Rizzini board for an explanation of the family tree. Interesting stuff.

I can also share a bit from my meager library. Vic Venters gave a good review of the Aurora Sig (B. Riz) line in the July/August 2000 Shooting Sportsman. In his 1999 edition of "Best Guns," Michael McIntosh calls both the B.Riz (Batista Rizzini) and I. Riz (Isadoro Rizzin, aka FAIR) "really good machine-made over/unders." Also, Philip Bourjaily, in the March 2002 Field and Stream, calls the TR20U 20 gauge "a tremendous amount of gun for the money" and "an absolute delight." .... But, hey, who believes these gun writer guys, anyway? Smile

Finally, re warranty work on a FAIR-made guns, here's a contact for the U.S. smith (Bazil Slaughter) who's doing FAIR warranty work, as well as non-warranty work:

Slaughter Gunsmithing
12801 US Highway 95 South, Unit B
Boulder City, Nevada,89005.
U.S.A.
702-610-0334
bazslghtr@earthlink.net

And, just FYI, everyone I've corresponded with who's had work done by Mr. Slaughter has had nothing but good things to say about him.

Just some info from first-hand experiences and the reading I've done. Certainly, YMMV.

Good shooting to all.

870wingmaster,
Talking Rizzini can get confusing cause there are at least 4 companies using the name. I have a B. Rizzini Aurum light that was ordered through my FFL dealer and gotten from the RizziniUSA warehouse in West Chester, PA. These guns carry a 100% warranty. And they have gunsmiths like Bud in West Chester to fix them if something ever goes wrong. So don't think the Sissytori is your only logical choice.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

MGF, thanks for those comments! Having read quite a few posts on both B and I Rizzini guns, the conclusion I come to is that those who have compared the two give the B's slightly higher marks in fit and finish on guns of comparable grade. Other than that, what I've read matches what you've read: overwhelmingly favorable comments on both.

One significant difference, for 16ga shooters, is that ALL the FAIR 16's are made on true 16ga frames. I think B. Rizzini may now be making 16's on 16ga frames, but initially, all the B. Rizzini 16's were on 12ga frames--although at least one model was pretty light, because of an alloy receiver. So if you're buying a B. Rizzini and looking for a gun on a 16ga frame, take a close look to make sure you're getting what you want.

Guest

Larry, True that on the difference in fit/finish. My TR20U was and is an absolute little beauty for the money. Found it one day and bought it the next at George Bartelmay Guns in Morton, Ill. George has since passed, but his partner, C. J., still runs the store. They carry a lot of Beretta and Browning O/Us, and I compared it to nearly every one in the racks hoping to talk myself out of it ... couldn't do it. Plunked down the cash, and still glad I did.

Beautiful blueing and case coloring, prefectly executed checkering, great wood-to-metal fit. Also the best trigger on any shotgun I've ever owned. Mine is the "entry" level of the old Sig line, but with all its simplicity, I think it's still the prettiest gun in my safe. Maybe Guy is onto something and the Sig line suffered at some point, but the ones brought in early when Wes Lang was running that deal for SigArms were, in my opinion, just hellacious buys for the money. I believe my brother -- one the most cost/value conscious guys I've ever seen and a hell of a gun shopper/trader -- would agree. In 20 gauge especially, those B.Riz Sigs have been just delicious little guns for my family.

I've heard Sig will still stand behind these guns. And even were that not the case and worse came to worst and I run into a problem that a local smith couldn't handle, Rich Cole's shop could solve the problem. I've always heard and read that Rich runs a fair shop.

My TR20U didn't get out much this year. Having too much fun with the 16 by FAIR. And after the first few weeks of the season, I went hot with that gun. Last weekend we were in calf- to knee-high snow all day, so the footwork was tough, but I think I still took four birds on seven shells. Lovin' that gun. We have one game-farm hunt left next weekend before we call it a year, so I may take the 20 out. Then it's the long wait 'til next fall.

I'm still hoping Wes Lang and the Rizzini nephews who are "Caesar Guerini" get on the stick and come out with a frame-proportionate 16. Every Guerini I've seen so far raises my gun lust. Just seem very well-crafted for their price points, and their reputation for customer service is excellent.

Cheers, all.

Mark

Hello MTJIM:

the 16ga and 20ga with 28" spring clip forearm comes in at 6 lbs 4 oz the 26" comes in at 6 lbs 2 oz add 4 oz for Deeley latch forearms

Regards Charles

I was at the club today. I talked with the owner of the problematic 20 ga. O/U which I thought was a Sig. It is not. It is a Heckler & Koch Lion seriers made in Italy. It still fails to always set the second barrel. Who made this gun? Perhaps you folks can help me track down the smith who does the work for them in the US.

One item I'm aware of. Most of the Rizzini guns apparently use the same basic block design and share many parts regardless of which Rizzini house makes them. I believe most of the barrels for these guns are also farmed out. This set up can pose problems in maintaining consistant quality.

One problem that continuously shows up in Italian double guns is poor double gun barrel alignment. I don't know how these barrels are made. I do know that the process involves high heat to braze the pair together. This process causes problems with controlling warpage. Its not good enough to hold the ends of the two tubes in alignment. The tubes themselve must remain straight and true to shoot well. Apparently, the barrel manufacturer(s) have not got the process perfected yet.

Last Spring, Cole Gunsmithing sent every one of its Rizzini line ( don't ask which one. I can't keep track.) back, because too many had unacceptable barrels and other problems. For what I could gather, the manufacturer was apparently unwillling to repair or replace the bad barrels and other faults. They urged Cole to offer the bad ones at a discount, remain quiet, and let the buyers seek warranty service on an uindividual basis. Apperently, the service would be a test firing and a subsequent claim that the guns all shoot in spec regardless of actual results. So Cole shipped them all back rather than risk its reputation for top quality products and workmanship.

I know where one Aurum out of that bunch ended up. Its still there, bad barrels and all. This gun is supposedly a $3500+ gun. I would'nt give a plugged nickle for it. It will not shoot well and it will never be fixed short of a replacement pair of barrels. As to whether this can or will be done remains a question.

I know of only one Italian maker that gauarantees its barrels to shoot true--Perazzi. I have never seen a bad pair or so much as a crooked single barrel from them. They make perfect barrels or throw them out. Of course, we pay for that assurance. These are highly prized and thought of target guns mostly. However, even their field guns are perfect.

Beretta occasionally will let a bad pair of barrels get by them. Beretta America will stone wall you until hell freezes over before they will replace the pair. The standard answer they will always give is that ther barrels shoot to factory spec, but they will never tell you what the parameters of the spec is. Apparently, if you can still hit both ends of a school bus while aiming at the center from 30 yards, its good enough.

Miroku went through the same problems with barrel alignment back in the 1970's through 1995. However, Browning USA made every barrel problem That I am aware of right either by replacing the barrels or the gun. Miroku has since apparently licked the problem. I have not seen a bad set of tubes on a Citori for well over a decade now.

I can only go by my own experiences and what I know to be true. I have already apologized to those folks who love these various Rizzini and Fair guns. I understand that all they can go by is how their own guns are. However, we don't always hear from those folks who got a bad one and quietly dump it into the used gun market. Most folks will just keep mum about it. Hardly anyone wants to openly admit something like that.

I've seen a number of earlier Browning Citori guns with bad barrels on the used market. It is too late for many these guns to be fixed. Apparently, the former owners either did not know just why they could not shoot these guns well, did not know Browning was willing to correct them, or just did not care to go through waiting out the repair process.

Its a shame too. Browning is one company that knows each and every one of these turkeys keep coming home to roost. Each gun with a bad unrepaired barrel set will continue to dissatisfy its next owner, year in year out. Browning will get a bad mark with each resale. That is why they are so willing to make it right if they can. However, the older guns themselves are too out of date to fix and will continue to haunt the market as they go from hand to hand. I've seen my share and am lucky enough to know how to avoid them.

Apparently, some of the Italian gun companies refuse to face this fact. They continue to ignore it and let the market absorb the bad ones. Their own turkeys are still flapping around and roosting from owner to owner. Time and tide march on. Their reputations will continue to erode with each ignored and passed on problematic gun. Ands so it goes.

I have a Heckler and Koch Classic Lion. Mine is made by Fabarm, in Italy. I also know they came with a lifetime warranty. I have no clue if this marriage between H&K and Fabarm was exclusive.

Lifetime warranty? Thanks PGG. However, unfortunately, this gun has been back several times for the same problem without a proper fix. Perhaps lifetime warranty means it will take a lifetime to get proper service. Laughing

Sorry, it was just too easy. Embarassed

Guest

Hope this helps:

To contact Heckler & Koch
in the United States, call:
Phone: 205.655.8299
Fax: 205.655.7078
Customer Service Hours: 9am-4pm EST

Way too easy...

I purchased mine used. No case or extra choke tubes. When I tried to contact H&K, all I got was the royal run around. I'm not even sure they're even honoring their warranty. But, I was told that Fabarm is honoring any lifetime warranty on their guns.

Good luck with yours.

Thanks MGF. I was hoping to get the name of one of the actual smiths who do the work for H&K. Perhaps a personal appeal to the guy doing the hands on might break the logjam.

This has worked for me in the past with another brand gun with a persistant problem. Apparently, the smith was being told to just clean and lube the gun by the service center. They apparently would not authorize payment for the repair job beyond that. The gun needed a replacement part. Once the Smith knew the actual problem, he contacted the service facility manager and got permission to do fix it right. Problem solved.

One of the problems here was that the different service reps handling the gun were not aware that it had been back three times for the same problem. They just kept recommending the cheap fix, rather than the real one. Lack of records keeping, and miscommunication left the problem on "sit and spin" until I took another approach. However, I'm known to be persistant if I know I'm right.