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Guy, below is an old (May 2006) post from the Fabarm board on shotgunworld.com. Don't know if the number is still valid or if Herbert is still the man to talk to re shotguns, but it might be worth a try:

The shop is in Trussville, AL (Birmingham suburb.) Their phone is 205-655-8299. They answer the phone "HK-Merkel". I don't know about parts availability, haven't asked. But I had a couple of questions when I first got the gun, got the number off the HK website. Ask for Herbert - he seems to be the shotgun guy. He called me back within a couple of hours and was very patient and helpful. Hope this helps.

Thanks MGF. I'll stash this info and let my friend know ASAP. We all know how frustrating having a perpetual repair issue can be.
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Thanks PGG, but thankfully for me, its not my gun. Its a fellow club member's. Its a really nice looking gun, but its been problematic up 'til now. I'm just trying to help him out.

Hey, mine is a sise by each, with double triggers. The only problem I ever had was the gun "doubled" three times on a ten degree day. Then I realized my silk glove liners were slipping to the second trigger. I'm amazed it took three tries to figure it out, but I attribute that to below freezing temps. After I changed gloves, no more problem. Since then, the gun has been flawless.

In 10 degree weather, I'd probably end up with my tongue stuck to the barrel. Rolling Eyes

Do you normally lick your gun barrel? Actually, when noon time came around, and the sun was high in the sky, that was one of the nicest days this year. As they say... a day the Lord made.

No, but I've been known to give my gun a big sloppy kiss for bringing down a bird way off at to hell and gone ranges- you know, one none of us would have a right to expect, but get anyhow. It would be just my luck to plaster a Rooster all the way across a midwest corn field on such a day, and have to walk back to the truck with the gun hanging from my lips. Rolling Eyes

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, I think you've found more bad barrels than most of us have. A good way to determine whether barrels are poorly aligned--in addition to patterning, of course--is to shoot a few rounds of skeet. Because you have just about all possible angles at skeet, if you have a barrel regulation problem--assuming the gun fits you to start with (and of course, if you shoot premounted gun, you can MAKE it fit), those problems will show up pretty quickly. I've shot several FAIRs at skeet (never a B. Rizzini, that I can recall) and have shot them all pretty well. Can say the same thing, for that matter, about Miroku-made OU's. Once bought one of the old Miroku Daly 20's, field gun choked IC/M, and shot a 99 with it--two rounds each on two different courses, the same day. Have never done that, before or since, with any other gun--and that was shooting low gun, which is the only way I shoot skeet. But I've found very few really bad barrels. Probably the worst was on a Hunter Special 16, made by the same company that made LC Smith, back before WWII. I had heard about problems with Rotas, however--as you discovered.

Outsourcing barrels isn't unusual. In fact, it's traditional in the European (including British) gun trade. Prior to WWII, other than a few very large companies that did all their work in house, European guns were made by specialists in their field. Barrelmaker made barrels, actioner made receivers, stocker made stocks, etc. For that matter, this was also true with American classic doubles, to a fairly significant extent. Ithaca got barrels from Belgium; Fox used Krupp barrels; high grade LC Smiths had Sir Joseph Whitworth barrels from England. That system still exists, to a certain extent, in places like Spain and the Val Trompia region of Italy. The only difference is that you now have shops (or small companies) making barrels rather than individual specialists.

Very few companies, on other than high dollar guns, can or do guarantee barrel performance. Back in the 20's, Fox made much of the then-incredible patterns produced by its Super Fox doubles. Unfortunately, the public took the publicity seriously, and expected every gun to shoot 80% (or whatever) at 40 yards. Eventually, Fox started marking "barrels not guaranteed" right on the barrels. Some people see that today and think it means the barrels might blow up or something. Simply means they're not guaranteeing that all barrels will deliver those results.

Generally speaking, you tend to hear more bad news than good news. If I buy a lemon, why should I not say it was a lemon, once I've gotten rid of it and moved on to something else? As noted previously, however, you don't hear about many Rizzini lemons--nor Citori lemons, for that matter. I take that to mean there aren't that many out there. As for Beretta, they have a pretty good reputation among target shooters, who tend to be pretty particular. Service--yes, that's where I've heard about problems with Beretta. But it usually relates to getting something fixed that doesn't work, not barrel regulation.

It still comes down to paying your money and taking your chances. Talk to people who've owned and shot the guns in question. Handle the guns. Talk to the dealer you're buying from. What's their policy if you have a problem and aren't satisfied? Then buy what you like, tell the world (via the internet) whether you like it or don't like it, and why.

Larry, I learned how to qualify a barrel set chapter and verse from the best in the business at the time, Stan Baker. I've outlined several times on this site how its done. You do not have to always shoot a gun to determine if it will shoot well. Pattern percentage is not as important as point of impact regulation. Chokes can be modified fairly inexpensively via several mehtods. However, a pair of barrels that do not shoot closely together are useless.

Skeet is a close range, open choked barrel game. If I were going to qualify barrels for convergent POI via shooting them at targets, trap would be the correct choice. However, actual patterning for point of impact is best. you will have a visual record of just where the centers of both barrels are striking in relation to each other right on the respective patterning sheets.

The best way for a new hand to visually check a pair of barrels is to line up the bores via a pair of collimator rings. These rings can indicate both how straight a barrel is and where the center of the pattern will strike. However, a trained eye can do the same once a person understands how the collimator rings work. they are simply an aid and a training tool.

If the barrels are straight or reasonably so, and the chambers and muzzles of each line up on the same distant point, with respect to correction for the POI shift caused by recoil, the gun will shoot both patterns reasonably close in a convergant manner. If the chambers and muzzles do not line up to the same distant point properly, the gun will shoot divergent patterns every time.

I've seen way too many Italian guns with barrels that indicate they will shoot divergently. The Beretta I refered to was a high end trap 680 line set. The top single barrel was dead on. The O/U pair shot apart by two feet at 40 yards. The bottom barrel shot low and right. the top barrel shot high and left. They were useless. I first visually checked them, then had the owner perform the patterning tests. The results proved what my visual check told me would happen.

Beretta refused to address the problem and claimed the barrels shot within spec. They would not state what spec was nor confirm the testing method. We performed three seperate patterning tests and sent the resulting pattern sheets as proof. Beretta just kept stonewalling the poor owner until he traded the gun for a Kreighoff. He hates Beretta until this day. I don't blame him. I'd have taken then to Accokeek, Maryland, and rammed them up the approprate butt if they were my barrels.

I had a similar experience with several Miroku Citori models in the early 1990's when Browning was making the transition from the old Invector line to the Invector Plus line of barrels. I documented the problem with patterning sheets indicating just how divergent the barrels shot. Browning replaced every set of barrels or the guns without any argument or stonewalling. They had to refund my money on one because they did not have any stock to swap it with.

This episode is when I became friends with Stan Baker. He was aquainted with a mutual friend of mine who did stock modifications on trap guns. Stan told me how to perform a proper patterning test for POI varification. He also walked me through the process of learning how to visually qualify good and bad barrels during the process. Once you've seen a few bad sets of barrels and have actually shot them for POI varification, the flaws become very apparent and the results of the shooting tests are fairly predictable.

My efforts helped Browning identify that Miroku was having a problem with barrel alignment and it led to their present improved method of assembling barrel sets today.

I'm not the only person to have recognised the the barrel aliognment flaws in several in several Italian lines of guns. The problem has been persistant which indicts the variuous companies are using a common source for their barrels. This source has a production method problem they have not overcome yet.

I mentioned that Cole sent their Rizzini line back because of barrel problems. The manufacturer would not make right on these guns, so they paid the price. That is a damned poor business practice in my opinion. Who wants to buy a gun for a couple of thousand or more only to find out the barrels shoot divergently.

Any company today that is willing to roll the dice like this is looking to get clobbered by its competition. There are just too many good O/U and SxS manufacturers out there to screw around like that. However, nobody has ever accused the Italian businessmenn of being astute. They tend to lag behind too many other countries in quality assurance in manufactured goods except for the very top end stuff. They need to modernize and address the problems rather than covering over the flaws with fancy engraving and finishing.

A perfect example of what i'm addressing is how badly new Beretta target gun sales have slipped in the last decade. i used to see lots of new Beretta trap, skeet, and SC guns. Now, folks buy older ones but pass on the new offerings. Too many bad ones in the mix. That is poor management.

I realize you are more involved with upland hunting and hunting guns. I on the other hand, shoot most of the shotgun games and hunt as well.
I get around the local circuit quite a bit and talk guns with many folks who are avid shooters as well as hunters. I am solidly aware that target games influence gun designs, reputations, and sales to a great degree. If the average hunter and member of a gun club hears a known good target shooter bad mouthing a certain brand of gun, you can bet your Bippy the hunter will probably pass on that make. I've seen this happen time and again. Not too many folks may know what makes a double gun shoot well, but if they hear that one brand does not always do so, they are not going to risk the money unless the gun is a real cheapy.

Rizzini and Fair guns are not cheap by a long shot. I think they deserve consistantly excellent barrels as well as an attitude adjustment by the companies who make them about making a mistake right. Until I see this happen, I will continue to avoid them and will warn others to be cautious. I'm no gambler.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Don't think I've ever seen a FAIR target gun. Likewise, the vast majority of B. Rizzini guns are field guns vs target. So most reports that come in on them are going to come from hunters, but most serious hunters do at least some clay target shooting.

The problem with trap in "reading" a barrel is that all trap targets are some sort of shallow going away angle. The other problem is that you don't know in advance what that angle will be. Actually, I only need one bird on the skeet field to clue me in as to whether I've got much of a barrel regulation problem, and that's low 7. Pretty much straightaway, and I know where it's going to be. And if I want to take a longer shot, I simply shoot slower. But if I'm whacking that thing with either barrel, I'm not terribly concerned about any barrel problems. On the other hand, if I'm certain of my hold and I'm hitting left or right consistently, or missing either over or under, then I know there's a fairly serious problem. But because of the sharper angles on a skeet field, those other targets reinforce what I see on low 7. And remember, I'm not talking target guns--I'm talking field guns. So it's quite rare for me to shoot skeet with a gun that's choked skt/skt. Something like IC/M, with less margin for error due to a large skeet pattern, requires one to be more "on" than with a skeet gun. And if you have a gun with screw-ins and really want to check, you can always put in the F tube and give that a whirl.

And when I pattern, I shoot at a blank piece of paper, with just a center dot as a point of aim. I don't draw my 30" circle until after I'm evaluating the pattern, so if I'm consistently off one way or the other, that will show up quite quickly. But I've found surprisingly few guns that are really very far off, and I've patterned a bunch.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

16gaugeguy,

that is not why Rich sent guns back to Rizzini. I will not type Rich's personal business on this board but barrels were not the problem

Guest

I'll back Brian on that one......I spoke with Cole's during their B. Rizzini clearance, and barrel problems was not the issue. Brian, PM coming your way....

Guest

I've never spoken with Rich (though I'd like to get one of his stocks one day), but I'm pretty sure I've read in more than one place that the reason he and B.Riz parted ways had to do with Rich being unhappy with some of B. Riz's practices. I've read and heard more than that, but as I cannot vouch for the sourcing, I'll leave it at that.

I do know Rich retains his excellent reputation. And it would not entirely surprise me if the B.Riz family is -- how shall I put this delicately -- not exactly diplomatic when it comes to its business relationships. Supposedly, the two B. Riz nephews who later found Caesar Guerini (named for an ancestor, as I understand it) were summarily dismissed from B. Riz on the spot when they inquired of the patriarch about obtaining some shares of the company.

The man may have shot his company in the foot on that one, as the nephews are building gorgeous, well-made and well-backed guns.

Guest

Guy, I don't doubt your experience and can even easily accept you're a much finer shot than me. Same goes for Larry. I don't doubt the both of you have "been there, done that" with many more guns in many more places than I have. But I have found that if I can stay around 21 to 23 at low-gun skeet over the course of a summer, that gun will take pheasants with reliability. To tell the truth, I don't even go to the paper unless the gun's failing me at the clay games.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

MGF, most of my patterning is to evaluate choke and load performance, not where the gun's shooting. My view of what I can do with a gun at skeet and in the field is pretty much the same as yours. But the sheets on which I shoot my patterns are only about 33" wide, so if I have much of a problem with barrels shooting right or left, it sure as heck shows up if the center of my pattern is very far off--I can't even get a 30" circle on the paper! (Up and down, I have more margin for error--but my only real concern there is if the gun shoots low or really high. A little high doesn't concern me. Probably helps for most upland birds, in fact.)

The given reason around the New England locale for Cole sending back the Rizzini line was the attitude of the Rizzini company regarding warranty service. There were other issues involved, but bad barrels was certainly on the list of faults. If even 5 % of the guns have barrel sets not well regulated, then that is way too many. For the average buyer, it becomes a crap shoot whether his gun will reliably hit to center of not with both barrels, especially if the manufacturer does not want to make it right.

Shotgun barrels are supposedly set to converge their pattern centers perfectly at 40 yards for 12 through 20 ga, 35 yards for 28ga, and 25-30 yards for a .410. Browning sets their standard at 2 inches max off center in any direction for a barrel and inside 4'' inches max between any two barrel set. Most good barrel sets will hold their pattern centers within these limits. If they don't then I don't want that gun.

It makes no difference whether the gun is a field gun or a target gun. In fact, I would say its more important that a field gun put its pattern right on. Targets do not feel pain when not hit well. Animals do. I wish to kill every game bird I shoot dead in the air as instantly as possible. flawed, inaccurate barrels will not help me do this.

Anyone here has the right to buy whatever gun he wants. Its his money and his business. I understand that cheaply made and low priced double guns have an inherent risk when it comes to how well their barrels will shoot together. surprizingly enough, a good number do this fauirly well. however, if the the price for a new double gun starts at $1500, that gun better place both its patterns one right over the other as closely as is reasonable.

I will not be buying any Rizzini guns until I see improvement in this matter. I will not support a company with quality control and business practice issues. Why should I? Its in my interest as a consumer to demand that the very basics in gun performance be met and that the people I do business with have some integrity regarding fixing any flaws under warranty. I will stand my ground here and stick to what I have learned works best for me.

As always, I thank you folks for the opporunity to discuss the matter in a civil, rational manner. We may disagree on issues, but at least we usually manage to do it in a gentlemanly manner. That is what makes this site such a good one.