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Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 694 Location: MN

Are FN and Browning shotguns made by the same company? FN's can sell for up to 10X as much and often look just like a Browning?

Jon,
Fabrique Nationale (FN) was the Belgium manufacturer that Browning had making their guns for many years.

In addition to Browning, FN had contracts with several other intities worldwide to make high quality guns in addition to their own guns under the FN name.
The FN gun goes way back to Pre-war europe.

I forget the exact date but I believe it was the early 1980's when that relationship ended and Browning for economic reasons started having their guns made in Japan.

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

The relation ship has not ended but only the Superposed(B25) and a few other firearms are available from FN as Brownings through the Browning Custom Shop http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/custom/index.asp . Various FN marked guns have made it to the US over the years. Some look like Brownings but there are differences. Generally the premium is the other way around and FN marked guns sell for less than Begian Browning guns.
Eastman's book about Browning is a good starting point reference.-Dick

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

Basically, after the first 600 rifles Browning never made guns...he designed them, had others manufacture them, and for some of those guns they had them labeled with the Browning name and then Browning marketed them in the US. This continued after John Moses died.

Examples include the Winchester high wall rifles, Winchester model 97 pump shotgun, the Remington Model 11 shotgun, the Savage 720 shotgun, the Colt .45 automatic, the Browning Automatic Rifle and "Ma Deuce" .50 Cal machine gun, the Browning (FN) Hi-Power 9mm, the Citori, (Miroku)..........

Some of these designs were made by several different companies over the years and some versions are more attractive to collectors (valuable) than others.

For example the Belgian (FN) Auto-5's are generally more collectable than the Japanese (Miroku) made versions. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Japanese guns.

Jeff

The Citori is not a Browning design persae. It is a modernized version or interpretation of a Superposed created by the engineers at Miroku. There are some basic differences. Miroku also designed the Kodensa/ Winchester 101 but sold the rights to Nikko. It too, is a modernized version of the Superposed.

After 1985, quality control and tolerences surpassed the vaunted FN superposed. The steel and the brazing used in the Citori is superior to the FN version and has been for decades. Further, modern FN B25 and B125 gun parts and assemblies are outsourced all over the world. None are handmade in the FN factory regardless of claims that they are. All fitting and finishing of the B25 is done in house. Not so with the B125. Much of its work is done in Portugal. Spain, or Italy wherever it can be sourced the cheapest..

Superposed quality dropped off considerably as the 1950's came to a close. I've seen quite a number of trap and skeet versions lose a rib and even seperate. Many came new with reliable firing issues. Then there was the salt wood fiasco. However, I will say I never saw a Superposed with a badly regulated set of barrels. FN always took pains to line them up perfectly. However, they used soft solder to put them together. This is where the rib and seperation problems stem from.

Miroku took a different approach. They have always hot silver brazed their barrels together. They paid the price too in warped barrels with regulation problems and crooked or curved bores. However, in the early 90's Miroku developed a new method of brazing barrels together. Most sets are flawless now. The Miroku sporting clays guns are now highly thought of anywhere they are marketed. They are the most popular O/U target gun in England and have been for well over a decade. They are also #1 in the States by a wide margin. When it comes to gun for dollar value, its not even a contest. The Miroku wins hands down. With FN, you are paying a very steep price for past glories and a now hollow reputation for superior quality IMO.

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

"Further, modern FN B25 and B125 gun parts and assemblies are outsourced all over the world. None are handmade in the FN factory regardless of claims that they are."

I'm always interested in learning the source of such pronoucements. do you have a reference that specifies where the B25 parts are manufactured? If you don't, You might want to call the Browning Custom Shop and talk with Ron McGhie.

A good reference for the B125 is http://www.trulockandharris.com/reviews/browning_b125.htm . B125 are being phased out as the parts are used up.
Similarly for the B325 http://www.trulockandharris.com/reviews/browning%20B3252.htm .

I have been offered B125's of different grades and know of one B325 for sale. None have the workmanship, especially engraving inherent in a B25. The Superposed Super Light Weights (BTW, that is the correct term for what most call a Super Light and so marked on original boxes) in 20 gauge weigh 5# 10 oz and in 12 gauge weigh 6# 8oz. These are steel framed guns and they are a joy to hunt with. The Magnum Superposed is joy to pass shoot geese with. I have a 30" F/F and with Kent TM #1, 45 yd shots with Canadas have them dead in the air.
The market must agree with my assement of the Superposed as a better overall gun for hunting at a minimum as witness to the prices they command today. Look at any Grade higher than a Field with engraving and compare to a higher grade Citori and the difference is plainly evident.
I can't comment on range use except to say that all shotguns used for the target use suffer from problems because of the sheer number of rounds fired. Me I use a bespoke Kolar SC anyway.
Salt wood is a dead issue. Those guns that experienced the problem have been fixed. I have AGNO3 crstals and the solution at hand but at this time, if a gun had salt wood, the affects would have been seen. I have 1968 Super Light Weight, no problem, a 1972 Pigeon Super Light Weight, no problem.
What you are paying for if you purchase a Superposed used or new, is hand work done by craftsman, rather a than a computer controlled gun being popped out of the assembly line. Refer to the Custom Shop catalog for B25 manufacture http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/custom/index.asp .
You can argue till the cows come home, but I own no Citori's of any type and I think that the picture you presented of the B25 "you are paying a very steep price for past glories and a now hollow reputation for superior quality IMO" is quite incorrect and biased.
BTW, I read your Post and others can read my Post and they can draw thier own conclusions. If you want to have a pissing contest, you can have it with yourself. -Dick

In all the years I bought, traded, and sold guns, I've handled, shot, and owned hundreds of FN Superposed guns in many different configurations and grades. The one thing I learned is that to get a good one, you have to sort through them carefully. Cherry picking is the word for it. from 1959 on, quality slipped badly. I sold every one I ever owned. The bad ones got passed on to folks who wanted them regardless, because they were FN Superposed guns at a good price. The best were sold for a premium, because they were the pick of the litter. This does not mean the whole line was well made by a long shot. They were a problem riddled line of guns with a trumped up reputation for being made better through pure advertising genious and hokum. Its hooey.

The claim that FN superposed guns are hand fitted and that somehow, this makes them superior is pure marketing hogwash. The buying public has been led to believe that "handfitting" means the same as hand built. Taint so. All it means is that assemblies are put together from assorted parts chosen from individual lots on a bench one at a time until the right part is found that fits. This is far from "hand fashioned" or hand made. The reason such hand fitting is necessary, is because the tolerences of the parts being machined are not held closely enough so that any part of a lot will fit well. A lot of queastionable parts get thrown into the mix and too many end up in the guns. This was the common problem all manufacturers faced when mass producing anything. It is the reason why many guns made prior to computer controlled machining and computer controlled optical tolerance varification systems are problematic.

The advent of computer controlled machining and automatic optical quality control to insure that close tolerences are being held has revolutionized mass production. We see the end result in our cars, our guns and many other things. Now, machine made parts can be made so accurately, that one part will fit perfectly in any subassembly. Moderbn methods are more accurate and far better. The end result is a mass produced gun that will work right out of the box without any problems.

The idea that such guns are cookie cutter copies is pure baloney. Who wants to buy a new gun with inherent risks involved that it might or might not work perfectly depending on the attitude of the workman who assembled it on any given day. This is why so many guns made prior to 1985 just do not have the same close tolerences of a gun made today.

As for FN Superposed shotguns, it is historical fact that from about 1959 on, quality of materials used and workmanship began to slide. Management was deteriorating, and the attitude of the work force was too. The quality of the guns suffered. Hence, the need to cherry pick for a good one still persists when buying one from that era. not for me thanks. Too risky.

The machined parts in today's FN B25 is being made by the same same computer controlled methods as any other gun. Hand made my foot. Please. I ain't buying it. My 16 gauge Grade I Citori carries just fine and kills any bird I hit well just as dead as any other gun I've ever owned. I do not need to spend three times as much to get a supposedly better gun. I also do not have to justify doing so with hollow claims of superior workmanship and "handfitted" assembly methods. Those days are over thankfully.

I'll take the Citori, and with the money I save, I'll buy ammo and componants so I can shoot more and improve on my skills. When all is said and done, its still the indian and not the arrow what does the shooting. Fancy does not equal proficiency. I don't need a fancy gun to look good on a game field or a shooting course. My shooting speaks for itself.

No thanks. Too risky.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

The main issue with the Belgian Brownings was price, not quality. The Superposed is the gun that sold the world on OU's. What happened in the 60's and 70's is that labor costs in Belgium went up significantly. (The salt wood problems certainly didn't help either!) Winchester was the company that proved that quality OU's could be produced in Japan, and that the American public would buy them. The first deal Browning struck with Miroku was for the BSS, not the Citori. But once they determined that Miroku could produce a quality product for a lot less money than the same gun would cost them made in Belgium, they brought out the Citori--which has certainly been a success for them. And now you can choose either the Citori or the Cynergy, both made by Miroku.

Too bad Miroku got out of the sxs business. For that matter, too bad the Japanese got out of that business completely.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:26 am; edited 2 times in total*

No doubt the 101 Winchester made Japanese O/U guns popular. However, Miroku was exporting O/U and SxS guns to the states in the mid-50's almost a decade before Winchester and Nikko teamed up to form Kodensa. C Daly had already picked up the Miroku line of O/U guns and brought them in from the early '60's until 1975. From what I've been told, the 101 design was a very similar to the failed FN O/U that was supposed to replace the Superposed. It had a solid reciever floor without the hinged cocking piece shared by the Superposed and all Miroku O/U designs prior to the Cynergy. It was a Miroku design which they never implimented. Nikko snapped it up in anticipation of the deal with Winchester. It is possible FN or Browning also used it as a basis for their failed O/U.

That out might be temporary Larry. SKB will most likely turn out more SxS guns. I've heard they are looking at ways of trimming the weight. The 385/485 series of guns were well made but the small gauges were awfully heavy. I briefly owned a 485 20/28 ga. combo that weighed over 7 pounds with 28" barrels. that is just too heavy IMO. However, the gun shot extremely well. I could have lived with a 6.5 pound gun. That is not a lot of weight to shed. Here's hoping.

I'm hoping the Turks, Spanish, and Italians take a lesson from the Japanese and start improving on their QC and attention to the basics like nice straight bores. If they do, and continue to finish the guns nicely, they will have winners right down the line. After all is said and done, it is how accurately and how dependably the gun shoots that matters. As far as affordavble guns that perform well, the Japanese have led the field for decades now.

As far as the why and the how FN gun quality deteriorated, it only matters as a lesson in how not to make guns. FN quality has improved very much as they have implimented better methods. I never would claim their exterior finishing work was ever shoddy. They made some beautiful to look at guns. However, fancy finish will never really cover up undependable performance and flawed structural integrity. Thankfully, those days are now past.

Today's B25 is a very dependable gun and a well finished one too. They are just not competative pricewise. On top of that, the Superposed design has been surpassed by better designs and better performing guns in the competition sector. John Browning was a genious among geniouses. However, today's talanted engineers are inventing better designs and ways to improve his work.

The Cynergy is such a gun and a very forward looking Swedish gun design from several decades ago. It had to wait until materials and production techniques caught up with it enough to make it profitably possible. Now it is.
The centerline of the bores are low er and closer together than the typical Citori or Superposed models. Recoil should be more directly in line with the shooter's body. Recovery time from shot to shot should be very quick. I am led to believe the triggers have been improved too. These guns should perform beautifully on the clays and double trap lines. Time will tell, but I think Browning and Miroku have another winner here.

I will admit the looks will need getting used to. However, some folks still can't stand the look of any O/U gun. However, most competative shooters are pragmatic and will adopt any gun design that adds point to their averages. I never look at my guns when shooting at a target. No good shooter does.

I will probably end up with one once Miroku works the bugs out inherent in any new start up production line. I am also very interested in a small gauge model if the weight can be held to a reasonable level. I'd love to see a 16 ga. gun, but I doubt it will happen. I undwerstand the 20 ga. model is too small for it, unlike the 20 ga. Citori receiver which was already deep enough to accomodate two 16 ga. barrels.

No matter I guess. I have several Citori 16 ga guns. They do just fine for hunting. They are everything the 20ga. Citori and the Superposed guns could have been if they'd been scaled for that gauge better. The fact that some clever engineer saw that it was possible to build a 16 on the existing 20 gauge frame is a stroke of luck for all 16 ga. lovers. The Citori 16 is the finest handling Citori ever IMO. It is pure serendipity. That is fine by me. I'll take whatebver works the best for the task at hand. For upland hunting, it is just about perfect. It is stout enough to take tailored high preformance loads that easily approach the best 1-1/4 ounce 12 ga loads, light enough to carry all day, and well balanced enough between the hands so it is as responsive as any other good 16 I've ever shot. That spells versitility for anything from snipe to pheasant. What more do I need? I'm happy.

Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 694 Location: MN

Weren't the new Parkers made in Japan? Which company made them?
I knw I talked to Skeuse about this but don't remember.

They were. they were made by Kodensa/Nikko, the same folks who made the Winchester 101 line of O/U guns. I do not know what happened to the tooling. some say it came back here to the states after Kodensa closed its doors in the early 90's. What a shame. However, original Parker collectors everywhere are grateful. The Japanese Parkers were just too good and a real threat valuewise.

However, never say never. The Japanese are superb engineering and production specialists. I have a hunch we will see good SxS guns come from them again when the time is right and it looks profitable to do so again.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, right before SKB stopped making sxs, they came out with a 385 that had an oil finish (rather than the shiny polyurethane), and it also had a much trimmer forend (generous splinter or small semi-BT, I would call it--versus the "full beaver" on the earlier 385/485's). They sent me one of those to field test, and I thought it was a pretty good gun and a definite step in the right direction for a sxs designed for hunting. Their old guns made for Ithaca, for whatever reason, were much lighter--which is one reason a lot of sxs fans like them better than the new ones. (That and the fact they're still reasonably inexpensive on the used market.) I just weighed a friend's 280E 20ga--straight grip, BT forend, 25" barrels--on my postal scale, and it came out 5/14. That's about a pound lighter than the more recent 385's--which is one reason they weren't much of a hit. The last ones they made, with the slimmed down forend, came closer to 6 1/2 I think, but still were on the heavy side for a lot of people looking for, say, a grouse and woodcock gun. The old Ithaca SKB Model 100, with a PG and splinter, was the lightest of them all in 20ga--and some grouse hunters swear by those things, with 25" barrels. Too barrel light for me--but to each his own.

I like the old Japanese Dalys a lot, but it took a big American outfit like Winchester, willing to put their name on a Japanese OU, to really sell the concept to American shooters. Then along came Ithaca with the SKB's and Browning with the Citoris, by which time Americans no longer doubted that the Japanese could turn out a decent product at a decent price.

I have an older, well used SKB 100 in 20 ga. with 28" barrels that swings like a well oiled door hinge. It weighs right at 6 pounds. I got it used for low money. Some bozo had spray painted the barrels with flat black primer to dull the finish for turkey hunting. (Imagine that, a turkey hunting turkeys. Laughing

) I cleaned the gun up back to original. I have a friend who just loves it to hunt with. I keep it for him.

He is an ex-cop who went through a very bitter divorce and who was falsely accused of wife abuse. It was pure legal BS on the part of the wife's lawyer for obvious reasons. There was no physical or substantiated proof. There were no witnesses. There were no prior occurances, no doctor's statement, no hospital records of trauma, nothing. His own daughter testified on his behalf. No matter. Once his spouse falsely swore out a 209A on him, the order was signed for precautionary measures. The result is he has been stripped of his right to keep and bear without due process of law. There is no appeal process. It does not matter that the order has be vacated years ago without prejudice and without any incidents of subsequent violation. Its a travesty.

I keep the gun for his use when we go bird hunting. He can legally use a gun to hunt. He can legally shoot one if the gun's owner is with him, but can't own one of his own in this bizarre state of ours. You folks who live in gun owner friendly states--count your blessings.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I'm not really in the mood right now and it would take too many words to do it, but this is one topic where I disagree with 16GG completely and thoroughly. I love the Superposed guns and have owned a few of them.I have also owned a few Citoris. To keep it all short and sweet, i hope everyone agrees with 16GG on this topic becasue then the demand for old superposeds will stay low along with the price. To me, there is no better gun value on the market today than the superposed. And, though I'm as much aware of their reputed problems of saltwood, loose ribs etc as anyone, I've yet to have a problem with any I have owned. Not only that, they were the best pointing, shooting and balanced guns I have ever wielded. In the fiel,d they are superior in every way to the Citori eg., weight balance etc. Superposeds are the main reason for my love of Browning. The absolute only thing about them I don't like is the fact the forend is so difficult to remove for cleaning. And, you shouldnt shoot steel in the ones made before the introduction of steel loads. I would take a superposed, with all its faults over any run o the mill citori any day, all else being equal. The thing I always wonder about is; if all that high tech machinery is so dang good, then why is there not a single citori offerring that can compare to the balance and feel of a superposed lightning, or superposed superlight? The answer sure isnt obvious. I bet if I lined up 10 experienced bird swatters, blind folded them and alternately handed them a superposed and a citori for their opinions on feel, they would pick the superposed every time. Then, take them all out to the field to shoot them too and they would pick the supers. The citori flat out feels like a boat oar compared to the superposed. And all this is coming from a guy who likes (maybe even loves) citoris. Heck, I own a 3500.00 dollar GTS and just got a citori superlight too. Why did I buy the citori superlight? Becasue the Superposed superlight of my dreams was 3300 bucks!! And the GTS was because I couldnt afford a Midas, Diana or Pointer grade Superposed (not that the GTS's are even close in quality to either) its just that its dressed up purdy with machined engraving and inlays. Heck, send me all your superposeds 16GG and I will have those ribs re-attached all day long (and any other work they may need). In fact, a guy could make good money buying junker superposeds, sending them to Art's for a rebuild etc., and reselling them dang near as new,,,,,,,no, not as new, better than new!!!!!!! But to each his own. I respect 16GG's opinion and agree with him on most stuff except this. But he's cagey enough that he's probably just trying to turn us all away from the supers so the price will stay down. Considering they start at 8,000 bucks new to buy one today, the 1000 - 3000 they are selling for (grade I's) is a screaming value even with loose ribs. All I can say is go wield some supers, or better yet, go hunt with some (and form your own opinion on this topic) cuz 16GG is definitely in the minority on this one! Yep, the citori is a fine gun.......but gimmme a break.

I never said the Superposed was not a fine handling gun. What I said was that after 1959, the line was plagued by poor quality control and warranty issues. Browning USA did a credible job of addressing those issues at a fairly high cost to them. Those days are over.

Sorry Jig, I sold them all years ago. I saw the hand writing on the wall. I was able to cherry pick a fair collection of very well put together Superposed models without warranty issues. I sold them before the prices nose dived. Sooner or later, Browning USA was going to pull the plug on its warranty service for Superposed guns with problems. When this happened, the value of the line sank. I did not wait for that to happen. I was able to sell all of them at a nice mark up, because none of mine were bad ones and my clientele knew it. They also saw what was about to happen and did not want to get caught in the "good gun, bad gun " game either.

I also recognised that Browning intended to use the "Superposed legend" to capitalize on the past glories of the gun. Today, the B25 is still being made. It is not hand made like some folks assume. It is assembled out of computer controlled parts just like every other good quality gun. The design is true to the originals. However, like most guns, it is now more heavily built to protect the manufacturer from liability issues. The new ones are not quite as light and responsive as the older ones. The price is also way over the top past reasonable. Its an old design and a good one, but there are better designs coming along now. The superposed had its day. The decent originals are finite and will eventually pass into private collections never to be seen again.

Today, if you buy a used Superposed, and it is not right, it will cost you a bunch to have it made right. Browning will do the work, and it will be done right. However, it will cost you through the nose. They intend to make back as much of their cost of making FN's past screw ups right from here on in. Those folks who buy a superposed with problems will foot the bill.

Too many gun traders are passing on the bad ones to folks who do not know any better. Too many of the bad ones are floating around and getting passed from hand to hand, burning those hands as they go. I won't do that. I refuse to be a part of that group. Nor will I subsidize the cost of FN's past sins, by paying Browning the high tariff to make a bad one good.

The same for older double guns. I won't knowingly sell a junker or a problematic gun to another shooter and slink away grinning. "Buyer beware" is supposed to be a warning, not a licence to screw folks over.

I've been both lucky and fortunate that I've had the opportunity to learn the trading game and how to spot problems with a gun before I buy one. However, in today's internet market, that is not always possible. So "Buyer Beware" is a watch word for those of us who do partake.

One more point. I have never claimed the entire line of Citori models are the best handling guns around. What I've said is that they are all well made with very few warranty issues or hidden problems like salt wood or ribs that come off. The few that do come through with issues will certainly be made right by Browning without any arguement or BS. Please do not read into my post what has not been said.

Some of the Citori models do feel like clubs, and some are very well designed for their purpose. It's very hard to fine fault with most of the Sporting clays, trap, and skeet gun line. Miroku has improved the breed to the point where they are among the best buys on the market for these purposes.

However, for a hunting gun, some of the citori models are very clubby. But not the 16 ga model. The 16 gauge Citori is built on a slightly widened 20 ga frame. It actually weighs less than the 20 gauge Citori of identical configuration and barrel length right across the board. It is without a doubt in my mind, the finest handling Citori of them all, bar none. It is anything but clubby or unresponsive. You have stated you do not own one. You are really missing the boat my friend. Until you do and shoot it for a season or two, you will never know this.

It is also very strongly built and can digest any well tailored high powered hunting handload you can feed it. Because it is so stout, The 16 ga. Citori can do just about anything you can do with a 12 ga for upland hunting applications. If you understand the gun and what it can do, you will realize just how special this particular Citori is. I choose to stick with the steel framed 16 gauge model just for this reason alone. I can feed it hunting handloads that would ruin an alloy framed model in no time at all. For hunting, it is truely a cut above all the rest of the line.

We've tossed this issue back and forth enough. Perhaps now, you understand where I stand and why. I'm going to move on now. As the guy on the radio says, "Now you know the rest of the story."