16ga.com ~ View topic

Brian, I'd like to ask a question or two, to clarify this matter and your position on it. Pleae indulge me.

You are in a large shop that carries guns made by a particular maker. These guns are in the more expensive end of the midpriced O/U or SxS guns available. You look down the barrels of a fair number of these guns in different gauges. You notice that about 25 to 30 percent of them have somewhat curved bores ranging from just perceptable to really noticable. Not only that, but the curves are not all well oriented to each other in a fair amount of them. The machining, the wood to metal finish, and the overall exterior appearance is good. You are knowledgable and practiced enough to cherry pick one for yourself and it will probably shoot well so you will know the gun you take home will be OK. Under these conditions, would you recommend that someone buy one of these guns sight unseen if there were no stocking dealers near enough to the person to go pick one out for themselves? What about someone who is of less experience at examining guns to detect flaws like even minor misaligned bores?

Second question. You are a gun dealer, but you do not carry a particular line of guns. However, you regularly order guns in for folks. One of your customers comes in and asks that you order a particular brand of gun made by a maker you've had issues with before or one of your collegues has had. However, the guy is heart set on this gun, because it comes in a gauge that is hard to find--like a 16 gauge. Do you warn the guy about the past problems you've experienced or maybe heard about from a reliable source, or witnessed yourself? Or do you just keep silent and hope things have improved based on what you've read about this new line of guns from this older, but proven to have been somewhat less than dependable maker?

Thanks for your time.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

16gg,

are we talking FAIRs or Rizzini B? I think it is important to clarify that I think there is a difference between the two.

The only place that I have had a chance to examine large quantities of BR guns are at WLM and Ivory Beads. I have examined the bores, triggers, finish and handling qualities of several BR guns at both places and I did not see any fleas on any of the guns. Bill Moore has been bringing in the B. Rizzini guns for a very long time. Over the years the repairs have been few and far between. Dave Moore tells me he shoots a Premier Sporter B. Rizzini at clays games. The gents at WLM have had good luck with the BR guns.

In closing all I can say is my PERSONAL experience has been the antithesis of what you report. I have friend who has 4 B. Rizzinis my Father owns one and anther friend who has a 16 gauge. This makes 9 B. Rizzinis I have shot and / owned and none of the guns have POI problem or any mechanical problems.

So I argue the point that B. Rizzini is a less than dependable maker.

To answer the question, feel free to report any opinion you wish. If your opinion is not back up with real world experience it's just not going to be taken serious.

Consumer Reports TESTS all the stuff they review.

Thanks for being a Gentleman
Brian

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Gun reviews . . . I've done a few of those, and here's the lowdown: Generally speaking, we don't get to keep them for all that long. Also, we don't get to pick the SPECIFIC gun we review--which, as you might guess, means that the importer or maker or dealer is . . . guess what? Going to pick a pretty good example for the reviewer. We certainly DO, however, shoot them. In my own case, as well as patterning the guns, I will also weigh them, take stock measurements, take bore and choke measurements, pretty well go over them with a fine tooth comb. If I happen to visit a shop that stocks the gun I'm reviewing, I'll also take a look at theirs, to try to determine whether the quality is relatively consistent.
What a gun review usually doesn't give a writer is a long enough period of time to pick up problems that may start to show up after you've burned a few flats of shells. I'll also take my review gun to the range and let anyone who's interested shoot it--and get their feedback.

I've also been at a few outdoor writers' "camps", put on by gun companies. Couple of times with Beretta, once with Browning. At the Beretta get-together, I commented that since they're selling their OU's with factory-installed pads, why not provide a thinner pad (the standard one gave a pretty long LOP)? Cheap way to sell more guns. Guy says, "This gun's too long. Doesn't fit." Dealer says, "Aha--it comes with a thinner pad. Let's switch." I see that they're doing it with several of their guns. Browning . . . I was in on the Cynergy "test drive". We picked up some minor flaws, which they corrected before the guns hit the shops. (Don't believe any of us had a safety issue, which was I think the reason for an early Cynergy recall.) We told them a couple things: 1. Get rid of the "line" in the wood buttstock, which simulates an adjustable comb. If the gun has an adjustable comb, fine. If not, don't carve lines in the stock. (I think they're still there.) 2. We all liked the basic design, but felt it would turn off quite a few more "traditional" buyers, and suggested they use the same design but get rid of a few of the "space gun" cosmetics--which they have since done, with a new model. Good to know they listen--sometimes.

Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Illinois

Maybe I need an education here because I have a question regarding "curved bores". What exactly is that? Wouldn't it be obvious that the barrel was bending too? Also, what is more important, the bores by looking at them or the patters from shooting them?

Again, I've never heard of that before so I'd like to know what it entails. Thanks!

Thanks Brian. I have handled a few B Rizzini guns. Every one was new in a shop so I did not get to shoot it. However, of these, I saw a higher end Aurum SC 12 ga. model at Kittery Trading Post out of the Cole stock. I think it was actually as new unfired. The bottom barrel bore was noticably curved to the right and down. The top barrel was fairly straight. I personally would not have bought the gun at any price.

However, the I Rizzini made guns were at LL Bean. they were all New Englander guns. this was the spring before last. I was up to their home shop in Maine for the annual flyfishing expo in late March. I wanted to buy a pair of neoprene waders that were on special and also wanted to make a day of it. While I was there, I stopped into their gun department. I asked to see a couple of their NE small bore 28 and .410 models. The fellow at the counter was a Saturday fill in BTW and was kind of clueless about guns. I looked through the bores of the two guns and saw a real problem with both. so I asked to see a couple more. The clerk hunted the gun shop manager down. The manager went into the back and pulled out two more of each gauge. One of the 28's was a bit better but still not perfectly straight bore wise. The other was not so good. The .410 was even worse than the first and the second not perfectly straight either.So the mabnager and I began a general inspection of all of them. About 30 percent were bad. Far more of the little bores had problems and worse problems than the 12 ga guns. However, there were bore problems in all gauges to some degree. Many of the 12 gauge guns were fine to the eye. The NE did not come in 16 gauge.

I don't exactly remember how many we looked at, but it was a bunch. We were at it for more than an hour. I do know that the shop manager was shocked and dismayed at what he saw. We looked at a few Browning O/U guns. None had any such problems. he checked a couple other makes too. He told me he had never really considered such a possibility as this in a line of guns that looked so good on the outside. He said he just assumed all good modern O/U and SxS guns had straight bores. He also thanked me serveral times for the education, and asked me to come back anytime. he also saw to it I got a very good deal on my waders for my efforts on their behalf.

I learned later that LL Bean cleared out the New Englander line not too long after this. I heard they were not real pleased with the line. I saw a few of these New Englanders show up in a shop near where I live. they are both small bores and both have curved bores sorry to say.

I would have loved to find a good .410 or 28 ga in the line. They are just delightful to heft and they come up nice for me too. But more than any other gauge, I demand straight barrels in any small bore of 28 or .410 size for obvious reasons. There is just not enough leeway for error with the little guns. Even wide open bores in the little ones do not cover the sins a bigger bore pattern does.

Anyway, now you know why I question these new I Rizzini guns. I hope that I'm right about which Rizzini made them, but I'm almost positive it was I. Rizzini, the maker of the FAIR guns. The two look very similar to identical. I've not wanted to divulge this, because I have P.O.ed enough folks off about this matter already. I really am not looking forward to the barrage that might come from the happy owners of an LL Bean New Englander. So if anyone owns one and likes it, great. I'm happy you got a good one. If you think there is a problem, please tell I Rizzini. I can't help you. Sorry about that. But thems the facts, good or bad.

Bottom line Guy... Brownings dealer refused to help. Browning then informed my brother that they HAD to send the gun back to the FFL.

Who screwed us over? The local store with "Browning" in the window, and the Utah based U.S. distributor who didn't fix the gun to begin with, and then refused to return it directly to us.

Only then did we go elsewhere.

Get over the fact that Browning and its dealer screwed the consumer royally. It may have happened only once in all their years, but it did happen.

PGG, I did not even infer that it did not happen. I simply asked how it could have. You are but one of many who have a story of poor service from a company with a normally excellent customer service record. Usually, in most cases, there have been mitigating circumstances. Usually, it can be traced back to poor communication, a not so honest dealer, a customer's own mistake, or some slacker in the repair facility.

I've sent more than two dozen guns back to Browning for warranty/and or repair or the occasional refinish. I've also sent more than a few handguns back to Smith and Wesson, and my share of rifles and handguns back to Ruger. Not once have any of them ever demanded I have them send the gun back to a dealer. They have always sent it back to the original point of origin--me. Not every job has come out perfect the first time either. but I've always kept the ball in their end of the court and have always ended up being well taken care of. In a few cases, I've gotten a lot more back than ventured. Plus, over the years, I've made some very valuablre friends and allies inside the system, because I remained pleasant, but determined to be treated fairly. It has always worked for me with any decent company.

I'm sorry you had trouble. I think you should have followed it up with Browning in Utah. Someone in the home office would have gotten the matter resolved for you and would have kicked the appropriate butt too I'll wager. But its now water over the dam. I can't make it right for you. Getting hostile about it won't get it done either. Just remember, I did not screw you over there my friend.

I promised you I'd post how I do get good service. Its in the general discussion section. I hope the info helps you. Are we friends again there PGG?

O.K. we can be friends. But no Brokeback mountain stuff . Agreed. At least not til our third date.

P.S. you obviously have a lot more gun contact than I do. Between my brother, a few friends, and myself, I know of only three problems.

The one with the new Browning.

A toplever spring on an eighty year old Francott, two months after I purchased the gun. Niles at Safari Outfitters took care of the situation, no charge.That went far beyond what I thought was fair.

The third was today on a 90 year old Sterlingworth that I ended up not buying. The spring loaded fore end would not lock up. Even after we removed the fore end iron and tried only the iron. Hopefully, the dealer can fix the problem and I'll have an awesome new Sterly. 90-95% Case colors. 90-95% Barrel blue. One small scratch on the stock, which was recently refinished. Ejectors. 26" imp/mod. I only wish it was 28".

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

As far as the core of these two companies go, they just can't really be compared in any FAIR way -(pun intended). The Browning legacy is almost ethereal with it's aura of longevity and reputation as "the best there is". Just in units delivered, US citizens in possession of, and glancing around at your local gunclub, Rizzini is like a spec of dust. I dare say I have never seen one at my local club except a few very low end Veronas some newbies walked into as starter guns. The Italian guns i've been seeing lately at the club are in order:
1. Caesar Guerini - its crazy, everybody's buying those out here in Seattle.
got to shoot a summit last week and have to say it was very nice - totally different though from browning (not as nose heavy)
2. Beretta - a stalwart
3. Perazzi - nuff said.
Krieghoff is pretty big out here in Seattle too because we have a major Krieghoff Dealer that has been in business for 70 years. See very few Blasers and kolars.
But in order of sheer numbers seen at my local club Browning wins hands down-by a mile. And, its a no-brainer that probably applies to any gunclub USA.
There is a reason for that - And it sure as hell aint because we all can't own Rizzini's if we've a mind to-nuff said. Now granted, this is the world of Sporting guns and not field guns which is what I think of with Rizzini. Do they even have sporting models? -(thats how much I care) Funny thing is, i've never seen one in the field either in 40 years of hunting. So who really gives a rip if they have good service or bad bbls? Apparently, not many. There are so many other and better choices one can make. And, in these parts at least, you'd have to go way outta your way to get one. The only Rizzini's that interest me are there very expensive models like the round body game guns at $6 grand. And, the Aurum small action guns look nifty. I went through a phase where I was intrigued a bit by the FAIR 900LX's and even the 702 16GA's with the gold inlays which is the same gun Cortona is marketing as the "prestige model" which they are listing MSRP as 3000.00 - Which is odd because Cabelas was selling the same model as the Cortona Prestige, for 1799.00!!!!! - but they are all sold now I think. They still seem to have a pile of 16GA 900 series though. But alas, I admit I'm a Browning loyalist and though I've tried to wash the buck mark off my undies a time or two, I always end up distracted by the skidmarks and forget the whole thing. Admittedly, I know nothing of Browning's warranty service as the 14 Brownings I've owned have never required its use.

Thanks nutcase. It can be confusing. A lot of the contracted guns made under anther brand can get pretty confusing when two or three gun manufactureres are all using the same name. Bottom line, the barrels were not up to snuff on a lot of these LL Bean guns. Does not matter who made them really. they should not have been on the guns.

I'm also not certain about the LL Bean policy concerning firearms. I do know that anytime I've bought anything from LL Bean, its been backed up 100% with no questions asked or hassles. Send it back and get a new one or a refund if the return is within a reasonable period if that is your desire. However, there are certain legal and bureaucratic issues that affect guns purchased new, vs. guns purchased used. I'm not certain LL Bean would refund your money if you bought a new gun and it was not accurate. I've never bought one from them.

In most cases, new guns tend to be lumped into the "Covered under warranty" catagory. Bad barrels are one of those gray areas that some manufacturers tend to not want to replace. They use the "within our specs" responce.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to have it done, but it is like pushing a big flat rock up a steep hill. So far, I've been successful with Browning, Remington, Ruger, and Smith and Wesson with having bad barrels replaced-and Thompson Center too if you count muzzleloader barrels (this one is actually pretty easy.) However, the efforts all ranged from laborious to a major campaign.

I lost one with Beretta. It was one I was handling for a friend. I did all the testing and correspondance for him in his name. Beretta just kept up with the "it's within our specs" response until my friend pulled the plug on the effort and traded the trap set off for a K-80. I'd have kept hammering them and even driven the gun down to Accokeek, MD, walked it into the Customer service manager's office and dropped it squarely in his lap. This probably would have done it. The bores were not curved in this case, they were both very straight and pointing in two distinct divergent directions. It was that obvious. I know I could have won that one too.

However, the point is that few folks have the determination and the Chutzpah to stick it out in a warranty issue battle. Most just cave in and either live with the problem or take the financial hit and trade the gun off.

Each time this is done creates one more uncorrected orphan to haunt the halls of many a gun show and used gun rack as the stinker gets passed from hand to unsatisfied hand. The tales of the stinker hurt the manufacturer's reputation sometimes for decades, and sometimes out of all proportion to the reality. These unfixed, inaccurate guns, leave a legacy of dissatisfaction that degrades the value of the good used ones. This is why some brands hold their value and some don't. It all comes down to dependability and perfoermance. And it does not take that many rotten apples to spoil it for the whole bunch. Bottom line, it is in a manufacturer's best interest to rectify these stinkers before they ruin the company's reputation. Nobody wants to gamble when buying a new gun.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

Jig,

I have never seen a David Mckay Brown in the field either. Come to think of it I have never seen a Purdey, Peter Nelson, F. Rizzini, Hartman and weiss or a Bosis in the field or at my range. Guess those guns must suck as well.

There are a lot of guns that are made that I or most of us never see in actual use. I really think your post missed the point. Just because there are more of a brand does not mean one can't find quality shotguns from smaller makers.

The bottom line this is a 16 gauge forum, the Rizzini companies make 16 gauges. They offer things that stupid Browning USA can't seem to get right. Things like solid ribs, 30" barrels and NON-PORTING. If Browning USA would get their head out of the sand I would buy another 16 gauge Browning. I will not shoot a ported gun. I don't need to ruin my hearing anymore than it already is.

Michael Macintosh seems to like the Rizzini Premier Sporting, but what does he know?

In closing I would like to remind you that this was never a post that asked the members of 16ga to compare the Browning and Rizzini guns.

Browse the shotgunworld forum any one will find a great many Rizzini owners very happy with their guns.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=113

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Brian-I know my post missed the point. I was not really trying to make any point other than to write stuff to be read about what I've seen and to certain degree, how I feel about all this ranting and raving regarding the never ending threads on these matters. Mostly, I was just bored, hyped up and unable to go to sleep because Tuesday nights I play the "Late shift" in my Tennis doubles group. And with nothing to really contribute other than very ill fated attempts at humour, I get a case of diarrhea of the brain/fingers. So I apologize and submit this disclaimer to negate my responsibility for the late night rantings of a madman. Really, I'm so excited about my acquisiton of a new 28GA yesterday it only added to my hyperactivity. Can't believe how well it worked for me on 5-stand. In fact, I'm headed back out in a few hours to do it again just to confirm. And yes, its a Browning of course. As hard as I try sometimes, Browning is so engraved on the fabric of my being that it sabotages my intentions to get any other guns. And, it seems, every time I do get a different gun make, I end up unhappy with them and sell them or trade them for another Browning. So I'm just giving up on it all now to focus on them exclusively. If it aint broke why fix it? We all have different ideas of what constitutes the perfect scattergun and for me, it always comes back to Browning. Thank God they have a nice variety of models new and old. Next? maybe a 525. See? I'm doing it again-this time its the coffee though. I'm a scatterbrained scattergunner.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

Jig,

not to get too far off topic but I love my 410 525 Cool

Guest

Just a few points:
(1) Sig has stated it will do warranty work on the B.Riz guns bearing their name. I woud imagine that would included the New Englanders by LL Bean.
(2) I cruise gun shops and gun shop sites. I've seen very few used "orphans." Or, for that matter, any FAIRs, other than at Cabela's and Bass Pro. And most of those aren't used, their NIB.You see a used one once in a while on the gun resale sites but, almost invariably, the seller is asking too much.
(3) Jig's right ... Cabela's does seem to have a bunch of the Model 900s left. My personal belief .... they may have slightly bettter luck getting rid of them at the new, reduced $2,800 price. They're not, IMO, $3,300 guns ... and I even own one and love it. In my estimation, they'd be a reasonably priced gun at $2,500. Hell, you can get a CG Magnus (with lifetme warranty and free "pit stop" tuneups ... but not in 16) for $3,300. And the craftsmanship and walnut on those CGs are stunning. The Cabela's FAIR guns in the 400 and 500 lines, though, went like poop through a goose. In other words, fast.
(4) And, just a footnote, my amateur refinishing on my FAIR went pretty well. I wasn't happy with finish left by the final step in Formby's kit, so I got out some #0000 steel wool and some boiled linseed oil. She's looking good.And now I can say I've got a "hand-rubbed oil finish" and did it myself. Laughing