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Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Checking a double gun for both uniformity of each barrel and regulation is something to be done on any gun you purchase Larry. It is one reason I will not buy a gun I can't handle first. Its real easy to check for even at the gunstore without a single piece of equipment -if you know how. For those of us that have purchased turds with bad tubes, we become obsessed with it because we know how bad it translates to POI and missed targets/birds.
Its friggin maddening at best. Trust me, you don't want to find that out after the fact. i made that very mistake with the heralded Merkel of all things once - never again.

Jig, if it happened with a Merkel, it can happen with any of them. Guns are built by humans. Humans screw up. It happens. Like you said, look down those pipes. Or, like I said, thrust the warranty of a solid company with a really good, long track record of standing behind their guns. Anything else is just plain gambling.

Member Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 13

When I talked to DeHaan about returning the 16ga U1 because of weight, he told me some of the 16's where coming in heavier than the 12's.

Going to pick up the Citori this afternoon.
Are you saying I should be able to look down the barrels and tell if there is a problem?

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

SBFD -is it correct for me to assume that your call name stands for "silent but deadly" with an added adjective for effect???

jig wrote: "Its real easy to check for even at the gunstore without a single piece of equipment -if you know how."

What is the method you recommend for checking barrel straightness in the store? Are you referring to looking for uniformity in the concentric rings produced by a light source when shone down the inside of the barrel? If anyone has another method -- please share.

Yup, that is exactly what I'm saying, at least for the straightness part. In most cases, that is close enough. In consideraton of how barrel sets are assembled today in jigs set to regulate them during assembly, if the tubes are straight, the gun will shoot true with either barrel most all the time. So put the two fullest choke tubes that come with the gun into the barrels and follow along.

Point the barrels at a neutral and evenly lit background like a gray sky or light colored, evenly lit wall. Now for each barrel, whle sighting straight through the bores, line up the light at the muzzle inside the ring of the forcing cone, and the chamber end so it looks like a three ring bullseye target. If all the rings are even and concentric, the barrel is straight. Check both barrels. If both are straight, then check the bores for roundness. If you see any hint of either being elliptical instead of round, pass on the gun and send it back. Just be sure its not bad lighting or side reflections. If the barrels are both round and straight, then check to see if the choke tubes look like they are evenly concentric and set in the barrel straight. If everything still looks good, then go to step two below.

From a rested position, and while again looking through the barrels, line up the two tubes vertically on the edge of a door or the corner of a room. The vertical line you are aiming at should cut through both barrels evenly. If both muzzle holes are bisected evenly by the vertical line you are aiming at, left right alignment is perfect. If not, then there might very well be a problem with the two barrels shooting to the same point of impact left to right. If you see any misalignment here, then I'd not accept the gun. Something is off. It may or may not shoot true, but there is a good chance it won't.

It means the choke tubes must be toed in or out to make the two barrels shoot to the same spot down range. I'd rather not have a gun corrected this way. It can degrade patterns, especially with the tighter choked tubes. Out yonder is where very good patterns are most important. If using a full choke also degrades the pattern because it is eccentrically set in the barrel, its a self defeating correction. Pass on the gun.

(For SxS doubles, I turn them vertically too, because its the easiest way to check them. However, any misalignment when checking them in the vertical position will point to one barrel shooting higher or lower than the other.)

While you have the gun rested, check to see if the top rib is centered too. An O/U gun with a misaligned rib will throw you off, unless you can correct the point of impact by adjusting the cast of the stock. Better for you not to have to do this after the sale. Check the rib and buy only guns with well aligned ones. Why buy a problem on a new gun. Pass on it.

If everything looks good so far, check for proper vertical alignment. On any O/U gun the bottom barrel has to be pointing slightly higher than the top barrel. That is normal. The top barrel will shoot a bit higher than the bottom if both are pointing exactly at the same spot. So while the barrel is rested, sight carefully dead center through the top barrel at a spot at a distance. (You might have to take the barrels outside to do this unless the room is a big one.) Center that spot dead center in the end of the barrel. Now, without moving the barrel set, sight straight through the bottom barrel. The spot should appear just a tad low in the bottom barrel as you sight straight through the tube. If it does, you can be reasonably sure this barrel set is a good one. Buy the gun.

( SXS barrel bores must be toed in toward each other to shoot to a common point of impact out yonder. So if checking a pair with my my method, use the same technique. If the barrel on the bottom is pointing a bit higher than the one on the top, that is normal. Expect it.)

I hope this info helps. Its kept me out of trouble for over a decade now. I learned it from Stan Baker--the Stan Baker. It has worked for me every time. All my guns bought after learning it put their respective pattern centers dead one each other within an inch or so out at 40 yards or a bit closer with a 28 or .410. That is plenty good enough. If a fellow can't hit the mark with barrels this straight and set this good, he needs to practice more.

I've found that a cardboard tomato or orange box or any corrogated cardboard box aboutthat size makes a good rest, I just cut two vertical slots in the center of the opposite ends of the box wide enough to snugly accept the barrels. you can then adjust the barrels and look through them hands off and stable. This will help greatly.

I hope the barrels on your Citori are straight, round, and true. If so, you've got a winner to be sure. Treasure the gun. It will serve you well.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, how many Rizzinis have you actually SHOT to judge for POI? And are you sure they were B or I Rizzinis? Smile

Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Illinois

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I agree that you can see problems by visually examining some barrels, if they're really bad. But I don't think you can see all problems. Maybe not even most problems. But I also remain unconvinced that a very high % of guns have barrel issues that result in a really significant deviation from POI.

The process is very simple to understand. If a paired set of barrels show enough curvature and misalignment to be readily detected by eye, then there is a significant chance the two barrels will not shoot accurately to the same spot as they were meant to. If they appear to be straight to the eye, they probably will shoot together well.

Those who believe the normal human eye can't detect minor variations in straightness and shape do not understand that the eye can detect differences as small as .002". Anything under .002" is not a significant problem. A couple or three more would not be a real problem. However, this much curvature and misalignment is detectable easily enough.

If a shotgun has a good set of barrels on it, then the stock on the gun can be modified or replaced to direct those barrels to hit where the shooter is focusing. However, the best fit stock can't overcome the problem of misaligned barrels. In most cases, the barrels have to be replaced.

Having a gun company replace a poorly regulated, inaccurate set of barrels on a gun is not easy. You have to convince any of them the problem is real. Quite a few will just hand you the "its within our specs" response. Unless you can get them to commit to a solid and reasonable accuracy spec, you are pretty much screwed. Browning is one company who does and has replaces several poorly shooting barrel sets for me.

The problem of curved, misaligned barrels was not a big one until the various manufacctures of double guns went to high heat brazing instead of low heat soldering. Higher heat causes ssteel to expand and to warp and twist as stresses in the steel are affected.

The old time makers had various methods of fixing alignment problems. Theyed reshape the choke end of the barrels to direct the shot or they'd bend the barrels slightly to offset a problem. They'd shoot the set and fix it with trial and error. Some of todays makers still do, especially the smaller houses who partially handbuild their guns. These guns are never cheap., because of the extra labor. However, theresults are usually perfect. Miroku used to use this method of rebending a barrel set to get the two barrels to shoot close together. They were not always successful either. However, most mass production gun manufactures do not use these old methods anymore. They rely on barrel assembly jigs, electron flow induction brazing, and some even wire wrap the barrels and braze them in ovens. This last method is the cheapest, but also the most prblematic. It give the least reliable results.

While some manufactures have developed various methods to control the warping. Others are still trying to figure it out. Some do not even braze the barrels together the entire length but use hangers at the muzzle end. Kreighoff uses this method. So did Remington, Kolar, and some others. Perazzi simply rejects the bad ones and will only put perfect barrels on its guns. Thet is one of the reasons the price is so high for a Perazzi. Others just put the barrels they make on as is and hope nobody notices. I'm also sure a certain amount of chuck and chancing goes on within the work force. It happens. We see it everyday everyehere we go. We are dealing with humans here folks.

I also know there are gun traders and dealers who would want any prospective customer to remain dumb and happy about the matter. The dealer may not even know enough about double guns to realize there are problems to be avoided. I'd wager its a rare gun shop clerk that understands show and why a pair of barrels shoots together or not. Nor would he care. His job is to sell guns, not detect problems. That is the customer's responsibility.

At this point, you folks can accept what I've posted as fact, you can dismiss it as hogwash, or you can bandy it around all you want. It won't change what I know to be true. My method of avoiding accuracy problems and possible warranty service battles works for me. I've shared it with all of you. Run with it or let it go. Its up to each of you. I'm done here. Good luck.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Ask a simple question--and get NO answer. Guy, I know you said you're done here, but 9 paras later, I still can't find an answer to my question, so I'll try one more time. How many Rizzinis have you actually SHOT to evaluate POI? Please note that if someone asks me whether I have experience with a gun, beyond just giving it a visual inspection, that's a question I would never hesitate to answer--whether that answer is yes or no.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Though the point between Larry and Guy is all about Rizzini and whether or not they are a firm one can trust to build guns to proper spec and/or compensate folks for those that are not, the larger issue and most important one is that - bbls must be checked before you buy any gun.

Why don't we all just leave it at that? I think we all would agree that we need to have the skills to be able to do that. And for those of us that have bought gun that had poorly regulated bbls, we will never make that mistake again. When it happens its bad. We all most know how to prevent ourselves from making that mistake and learn by other previous mistakes. Thats one great thing about websites like this. It can shorten the learning curve and allow others to learn to avoid mistakes experienced by some of us.

Let's just drop the whole Rizzini/Larry versus guy thing. Nobody is ever gonna win that at least between those two. We have all already heard enough to make our own decisions and there is no need for either of you to lobby any more to gain votes for who is right, or wrong. But continue if you must because its certainly entertaining to watch/read. I've come away richer for the argument, but don't feel the need for a consensus winner either. Which neither of you are ever going to knowingly gain anyway. As i said, we have all mostly taken a side on these matters, or remained neutral and extrapolated any lessons we might learn from the whole argument. At this point, I don't think there is anything left to learn. Both of you are respected contributors to this site and I highly value your opinions - but I think it may be time to give it up.Its getting silly now.

Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Illinois

jig - You make valid points and you are most certainly right.

What my issue revolves around is the conjecture that takes place with eyeballing a barrel. I'm more of a facts and proof type person. If someone could show me a "bad" barrel and then pattern and record it, proving the barrel was indeed "bad" than my question would be answered.

That hasn't taken place here. Whether its a Rizzini or a Browning or a Widget, I have yet to witness and/or experience conclusive evidence on the quality of a barrel other than patterning it and checking for POI. That is really the proof in the pudding.

While looking down an obviously bad barrel can show you all you need to know, I have a hard time believing the "bad barrel" epidemic as it is preached here without any proof other than an eyeball view and opinion.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Yeah -i get you. I personally have had only one gun in my life with POI problems that I've known of: A merkel Model 8 and I promptly got rid of it upon discovery (back to the stealer in this case). When it finally does happen to you, you will know it. Epidemic? No. I think its very rare indeed. In 48 years of shotgunning its happened exactly once to me.

I do think however, its something to maintain an awareness of, and an ability to find it - before it finds you. Becasue when it does happen it sucks.
Guess in your case, until you come across such a gun, you might not believe it. Just remember that 1/8" can translate into feet at 40 yards (can't remember the exact figure). And in shotgunning, even though its a scattergun, we can't make up for that kind of inaccuracy in a doublegun be it stack, or SXS.

I bought my first O/U, a Remington SPR 310 16 gauge. Although it's on the heavy side it knocks down the birds. I know my dogs would recommend it to anyone.