16ga.com ~ View topic

16ga guy and jig have been talking recently about the actions on Citori's. Neither thinks much of alloy receivers, whether Citori, B. Rizzini or other brands.

One of Browning's "The Best There Is" talking points, is that their action will just be broken in when others are already worn out; because of their superior design. (I bought a Husqvarna chainsaw because they said it needed 25 hours of operation before the engine would produce full power. Other brands would be well on their way to the scrap pile before a Husky was just reaching its potential.) Doesn't that also apply to their alloy receivers? Or are they of some other style because of not being made from steel?

Has there ever been definitive testing done to determine useful life of alloy vs. steel framed O\U's?

I have a friend who has a Citori Lightning Feather 16ga. He likes the gun, it fits him well and he shoots it very well. He has one problem with it. When he shoots a 50 bird round of SC the gun gets so tight toward the end of the round that it can barely be opened, loaded or empty. He has no problem hunting or shooting a round of skeet. All we have been able to come up with is that the difference in the expansion rates between the steel barrels and the alloy (aluminum) receiver has to be the problem. We think that as the barrels get hotter they expand (grow lengthwise) and do not cool as fast as the alloy receiver. This causes the gun to become extremely tight. As soon as the gun cools off it opens normally again.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening? Do you have any other ideas as to what else could be causing this problem? I have watched the various shotgun forums for quite a while and no one else has ever mentioned this problem so maybe this is an isolated incident. I have shot my steel framed Citori in the same conditions and have not had any problems. When this happens it is always in the summer and as you all know it can get a wee bit hot in the Arizona desert. Shocked

Dennis

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

I've got or I've had Citoris in metal, Superposeds and Citori Feathers in 20 and 16. I've never had a problem with the alloy vs metal. Currently I use my 16ga Feather for SC and Trap.
I usually shoot 4 rounds of trap in a row, sometimes shooting a round of doubles immediately following. Never had a problem with the gun recoiling too much, not working etc etc. I've also shot as many as 150-175 rds at a time on the SC range. Without a hitch.
Only thing I will say is that I'm not a serious trap or SC shooter. I'm not shooting 50K rds a year. More like 5-6K. So the longevity of 25-50K a year over a period of years? I can't answer that. But I can say anyone looking at a Feather strictly for informal occasional trap, SC, and field use will not have any problem with the gun outlasting them. Wink

My vote is for either one. Both get the job done without a problem.

Anythime a particular design is adapted for use with a different, somewhat less stong material, I will always wait and see. Coming from a quality control and engineering background tends to make me cautious about such ideas. I've simply seen too many fail. I have an inherent distrust of such a move. Steel againgt alloy in a hinge gun presents several problems, including different expansion rates, lubrication problems, metal galling, stress issues, different levels of resilience to impact, torque, etc..

The superposed shotgun design was created around a steel frame and barrel block. So the warning signs went up when Miroku substituted an alloy frame. I have preached caution. I 've qualified that by also saying the gun will probably be OK for hunting and occasional use. I do not think its a good design for a competition gun or for weekly target work. I've seen too many steel framed hinge guns fail on the trap and skeet fields. I just refuse to trust alloy here.

Since then, there have been rumors of a few reports of cracked frames with the alloy Citori, a couple of Berettas, and some Franchi Veloce models. I've not seen these reports, and do not know the particulars. Perhaps the guns were misused. Perhaps it was faulty ammo. Perhaps its pure BS. I do not know.

For me, the jury is still out on alloy reciever hinge guns. In the mean time, I'm more than pleased with my steel framed 16 ga Citori guns. They are strong enough for anything I dish out to them, light enough for me to carry in the field all day, are plenty lihgt enough to be responsive, have enough mass to swing, are balanced to a tee, and are heavy enough to absorb enough recoil so I enjoy shooting them. I'm happy with what I have. That is all that matters to me. Anyone else can buy and shoot what they want. That is their business.

PS: Human beings get all kinds of ideas. we tend to think our own ideas are better, or smarter, or more clever. I guess its just human nature. Some smart fellow in Miruku thought, alloy receiver. Light! Strong enough! A production manager then thought alloy is easier and cheaper to machine. A marketing manager thought fine--more profit for less cost, and we do not have one yet while other companies already do. Hence, the alloy Citori was born.

There was a time when folks also thought hydrogen filled airships were a great idea, the wave ofthe future. The Germans developed the Zepplin in WWI. The Americans designed the Shenandoa dirigible for the navy. The Shenandoa crashed. the Hindenburg exploded and burned in New Jersey.

Some ideas just seem good until they go boom. You can bet your butt you'd have not seen mine hanging from the bottom of a hydrogen filled bag a couple of thousand feet in the air. I don't go bungee jumping either. Wink

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I have not heard any reports of problems with the alloy receiver guns, and I would expect they'd come up on doublegunshop if it were happening a lot, because that's where we've heard of Flues frame failures, barrel bursts on different guns, etc. Remember, Remington had to recall a bunch of barrels a few years back--1100's I think? And those were steel. On the other hand, I've never heard of a barrel failure on a Winchester Model 59, which used a very thin steel liner wrapped in fiberglass. (Have heard of some cracked frames on those guns.)

The alloy receiver guns are not likely candidates for heavy duty target work, for the simple reason that they were designed with alloy receivers to reduce weight. Weight reduction is something the hunter is looking for, not the target shooter. But since even steel receivers do occasionally fail, it's unlikely that alloy receivers will be 100% nonfailures.

Heat does seem to be a particular problem when you put alloy and steel together. That's why automakers haven't been extremely successful in using much alloy material to significantly reduce engine weight. And I probably would not want to take my Lightning Feather to the UP Classic and shoot the flurry event with it (75 targets in 2 1/2 minutes!)--even if it were a sxs rather than an OU. (That shoot is sxs only.)

I think I asked this question on another BB, but I cannot think of a single sxs that's used an alloy frame, while there have been several OU's. Anyone else?

I do not think even a strong aircraft alloy frame would work for an SxS hinge gun design. There are even more stress factors, less mass, and less bearing surfaces to work with. A straight line sliding barrel design like the Darne might translate OK with the right reinforcement points and inlaid bearing surfaces. Perhaps titanium might work for an SxS hinge design, but would prohibitively expensive. This is just pure speculation on my part.

The O/U hinge design has more of everything strengthwise as opposed to the simple SxS design. The side bearing surfaces of the O/U frame against the sides of the O/U barrel block are a big factor in reducing the effects of horizontal, lateral, abd diagonal stress or torque. We see far fewer O/U guns come off face than most basic SxS designs with the same amount of use.

However, the Browning single bottom lug and bottom sliding lug lock up, though obviously adequate with a steel on steel construction, is weaker than an O/U design with both bottom lugs and locking surfaces either over or between the barrels like the Perazzi MX guns, the Beretta, the SKB, or the Merkel O/U design.

I do think a double underlug w/ cross bolt type lock up on an SxS is probably as rugged as a simple bottom lug lock up on an O/U. Locking in the ignition forces on both the top and bottom of both chambers is always a good idea. The cross lug above the barrels helps the water table of the receiver bear against the bottom barrel flats better. This mitigates the effects of diagonal stress or torque as well as vertical and horizontal stress much like the side surfaces of an O/U design do.

I might be more convinced of proper strength in an alloy framed O/U if it has a top and bottom lock up as well as the side surfaces of the frame against the barrel block. This would help distribute the stresses involved much more efficiently. When it comes to physics, you can't rob Peter to pay Paul. you can only add support if using a weaker material or lose strength. That is the reality.

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

If and when this gun ever makes it to these shores we will find out how well a SxS with an alloy receiver performs:

http://www.fabarm.com/nobilegrade.htm

Supposedly Tri-Star had been chosen to be the new importer of Fabarm, but things are running behind schedule. Crying or Very sad

Larry if you want to do a review I'd put your request in now. There will probably be a lot of would be reviewers wanting in line when it finally shows up.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

It has happened regardless of any reports you may/may not have seen. I have seen it firsthand. So it has happened at least once (of course I have heard numerous reports from reliable sources of other instances too) but let's just say I havent for the sake of conversation. Once is enough for me on this issue because I don't yet believe in alloy guns as a viable choice for me. For others, they may be a great choice.
Please go knock yourselves out - buy all the alloy guns you can because then maybe the technology will improve. Although being a man of tradition, there's just something about steel to me.

I think Guy nailed it when he said something to the effect that alloy guns may not be a good choice for a weekly clays gun - just a dose of common sense there. Really, thats all anyone has said. I choose not to own them because whether high volume shooting or not, I want to know that I can with my guns. plus, I just don't like the idea of alloy in my guns. For those that just go hunting with them a few times per year, then hang it up, could be an excellent choice for a COST EFFECTIVE weight saving measure in otherwise, heavier packages. I will just continue to heft my all steel citoris happily, knowing that they have zero reports of these instances of failure of this kind. I'm all for new ideas - that work. Just don't want to be the guinea pig. There is, after all, at least a couple reasons they are not making sporting models in alloy yet. Can't argue with common sense, which is sometimes uncommon nowadays. Even the knowledgeable Browning dealer's who's doors I've darkened have qualified those pieces as being nothing more than they are.

I see they've bifercated the lumps and spread them apart. It also looks like they have a sliding bottom plate too. This looks like it might work, at least for a 20 ga gun. For a stouter ga. with more head trust against the face, I've let others take a chance and see if it works.

The gun weighs about 5.6 pounds. 20 ga SxS guns have been done in steel at about the same weight without a lot of problems. So I ask, whats the point? Where does buying this gun benifit me? I give up a steel receiver, and what do I gain?

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

I've got no business in this highly technical discussion---way beyond my expertise-- but all this talk of alloy/steel made me think of the Franchi Falconet----an O/U with steel/alloy? I can't ever remember this arm being mentioned on this board and they did make the gun in 16ga. What news?
Ron

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Nutcase, that's an interesting looking gun. Lumps are basically the same as on the old Fabarm Classic Lion. Hard to imagine a more robust locking system. 5 1/2# 28's aren't unheard of, but they're pretty unusual--if we're talking guns designed for modern American 2 3/4" loads. Certainly not uncommon in old British 2 1/2" 20's, but that would be about at the bottom end of the weight scale for a Fox, generally speaking the lightest of the American sxs--even with 26" barrels.

Guy, if you ever find a side by side in which the water table bears up against the barrel flats, you might want to question the engineering skills of the person who designed it. Side by sides ain't built that way. Here's Gough Thomas (pen name of the late G.T. Garwood, a British engineer and highly regarded expert on shotguns) on the subject: "Again, the flats of the barrels should not touch the flats of the action, except possibly just at the foot of the standing breech. Yet I have known men, who should have known better, to mark a gun down because there was a glint of daylight visible between these flats." In his chapter "The Shotgun Action" in his book "Shotguns and Cartridges for Game and Clays", he explains what happens to the action of a sxs when it's fired, and why it's built the way it is. As someone with an engineering background, you'd enjoy his writing. (In general, he didn't think much of top fasteners on side by sides with double underbolts. He felt that the underbolts, if properly designed, were more than sufficient.)

Jig, in what gun did you see receiver failure? What part of the receiver failed?

Woodcock, I'm not sure I've ever seen a Falconet 16. Plenty of 12's and 20's, and they did make them in 16--but I think they must be pretty rare. And they were indeed an alloy receiver gun. Very early one, dating from the late 60's.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

XS Feather 12GA the receiver was changed (I say changed because the gun would not open without incredible difficulty. Then, it wouldnt close no matter what. This occurred with the individual shooting trap. Though I was only a bystander and neithr knew this individual personally, or attempted any analytical aid, i watched them and listened to the ensuing reaction, 3 people trying to help and figure out what went wrong etc. They believed the failure was down at the locking lug in that it bent the receiver in a way that wouldnt allow the gun to grip the lug. I'm not real versed in gun part terminology - but I'm talking about the receiver area where the cross bolt and the bbl hinge meet. The other failure I only heard of at a local browning dealer in North Seattle was with a citori lightning feather where the steel insert had slipped out of the breech face, which is actually the most common problem I've heard and read about with these alloy guns. I'm going to both the range and that shop again this weekend and will try and clarify all this further. i think they have some pictures that the client took to send to browning. I will research further and let everyone know all i can.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Where would one read about these faliures. The actual publication. I'm always a bit leary when I hear "they said", "I read", "I heard", etc. I guess being in LE for 32 years I need to be shown facts and not just mere statements. And I'm not saying the facts aren't there, somewhere, I would just like the names of the publication that wrote them, the location of the research paper and who it was done by etc.

Thanks

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Kirk, you've got it right. If you look at the breech face of a Lightning Feather, you'll see the steel insert quite clearly, and if you look harder, you'll see the outline of the seam where it's fitted into the breech face. You can also tell that the hinge pin is not the same as the receiver body--different color. Those are the parts of the receiver that need to be harder.

Jig, that's an interesting report. I can see the breech face insert coming out if it's not properly fitted, although that should not be a very hard fix. Problems with the hinge pin would be a different story.