16ga.com ~ View topic - Has anyone seen the new Cesar Guerini 16 ga???

MGF, if your gun is shooting well for you, then your gun probably has good barrels. The warning does not apply to you. However, if it does, getting PO'ed at me over the problem will not fix it. Take it up with those who made the gun. Its really that simple. If truth upsets you, focus your anger where it will do the most good.

Think of it this way. You buy a car. Your particular car runs well and does not give you any problems. However, that make and model has had some problems and there are consumer reports to that effect based on real evidence. Do you get all bent out of shape at the folks who report the problem? You are fortunate to have a problem free car based on the evidence. Defending the maker will not fix all the bad cars out there. Trying to stifle the truth will not help anyone avoid a possible problem. Giving the manufacturer a free pass will not make it face the consequences or fix the problems either. The only benificiaries here are the manufgacturer and the dealers.

I personally refuse to buy any of the Rizzini guns regardless of which company made them based on my own observances. Buying one of their guns should not be a crap shoot, especially at the prices they want for them. Each and every one should have very good barrels on them. I'm not about to reward them with my business. That is my choice and my right.

Also, if I speak the truth about the matter, issuing vailed threats will not stop me from doing so. Speaking out is also my right and my choice. I'll do whatever I need to do to defend that right. So I'd suggest you do not even go there. Perhaps this clears it up. If it does not, then continuing this line of discourse will do neither of us any good.

I do not know if yiou have more at stake in this matter than your personal pride. If you are in the business of selling these guns, then it behooves you even more so to take the matter up with that company. I think we are done here. I know I am.

Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Illinois

Guys,

. Anyone that comes into a thread such as this to stand on their soapbox and start trashing guns that he has no intention of buy and parroting a concept that its obvious he has little knowledge about is simply trolling.

I also Googled "lacquered trash" and didn't find anywhere on the web where it was referred to in any way, shape or form to a shotgun. Again, more parroting by our "barrel expert".

And to praise Miroku as a great company because they have the "barrel thing" figured out while the rest are just out to make a quick profit should key you onto the type of individual you are dealing with here.

Funny how he never mentions anything about the "great" Browning triggers or the FTF problem a lot of Browning O/Us run into with the lower barrel due to their design. And I can find a ton of posts and examples and all you'll hear back is what a terrific repair facility Browning has, regardless of the stories I could find regarding that issue too.

I'd like to say please don't let one person's opinion ruin it for everyone but I think I've had just about enough. I read in the post regarding ammunition in old SxSs where someone stated they don't visit here anymore because of 16GaugeGuy's conceited approach to forum conversation and I'm starting to see the wisdom in their ways. I'm thinking I will probably take a break for awhile hence I read one more post about barrels and blah, blah, blah. Rolling Eyes

Guest

Veiled threats? 16GG, you take yourself way too seriously.

And what's with you and this "at stake" thing. No one is a more rabid backer of a particular gunmaker than you, yet let anyone else speak well of a gunmaker you don't care for -- or even a group of gunmakers that you often get confused -- and you pull this ulterior-motive rabbit out of the hat. One more time: The only money I've got in the gun industry is that which I've spent on guns, shells, bags, etc.

I'm not threatening you, or for that matter even debating you any longer. Personal pride? Bent out of shape? Hardly. What's to be gained? I'm shooting fine and having fun right here in the real sky-and-earth real world. I don't need to be a Web expert. I will admit I do feel bad that you've probably run less-experienced shooters off some good guns and now appear ready to start on CG. And I have no doubt you've run off potential new contributors to our site.

Personally, I've owned one Rizzini O/U or another during the past several years -- along with O/Us, pumps and semi-autos by Browning, Beretta, Remington and Winchester and, now, CG -- and I have yet to have so much as a misfire with any of the Rizzinis or the CG. Hundreds, if not thousands, of other guys can and do tell the same tale.

What motivates me (make that "motivated," past tense) in my responses to you is your habit of citing all this "knowledge" about Rizzinis you've supposedly gained along the line, yet you continue to ignore the many first-hand experiences of shooters on this board and elsewhere. It's as if your knowledge and voice is gospel, all others are mere anectdotal evidence. Absurd.

That habit links up nicely with your double-standards. You preach of gentlemanly behavior, then call other men's gun trash and call their motives into question.

ShooterZ is dead-on. I, for one, am done feeding the troll.

Its good to know you were not serious about the "be careful what you say" part. You sure sounded serious to me. I try never to tell folks what they can and can't say. That is not my right. I may not agree with them, but their right to disagree is precious to me, just like their right to keep and bear. Persional attacks aside, we need to understand this matter. we are losing this right to dissent. I'd rather you dislike me rather than try to silence me, because you do not like what I'm saying. Simply going along because its nicer and easier led to Hitler's rize to power. the same process is happening in our nation as we speak. That is one thing I strongly hate to see. I'm part ofAmerican society, but I'll be danmed if I will kiss its ass to remain popular, well liked, or politically correct. That tack is for politicians. I don't think much of the ones we have right now.

As far as being a rabid fan of any gun company, That is not me. I'm a consumer who wants to get as much for my money as I can. I have continously stated the reason I learned the lesson about bad barrels started with bad barrels on a Citori. What does that tell you? I also said it was quite an undertaking to find a way to prove to Browning the problem on that gun was real. I did not like having to go through the process. It was a major pain in the ass. However, I did learn much from it. It woke me up to the reality. Now I know better than fall into that mistake again.

Browning also learned from the experience. Once I proved it to them about the first gun (which they both replaced and upgraded to a Grade III), I went through the other Citoris I owned and found another. They replaced the barrels on that one. Within 18 monthes, I ordered and recieved two more, both grade III Lightning small bores, a 28 ga. which they replaced, and a .410 which they had to refund me for because they did not have any in stock. I found another .410 the next month with good barrels and nice wood to boot.

So Miroku had a barrel assembly problem. However, within a year or so, they licked it. The guns they make now have good barrels for the most part. Everyone has benifited from that effort on their part. However, you can bet I look at each and every gun I am considering for purchase including Browning shotguns. it is easier to avoid bad barrels than correct this problem. By comparison, correcting a faulty trigger or barrel selector is a walk in the park.

I'm not attacking Rizzini. I'm urging them through their fans to get a handle on the problems I have seen. If they finally get a handle on this matter of too many bad barrels, then we all benifit including them.

As for where I first came upon the term "lacquered trash", it is in a passage from a book written by a 19th Century Englishman who moved to America sometime in the mid-part of that century. I will find it at home and post the title and the author tomorrow. Then you can perhaps find a copy and read it for yourself.

Regardless of SShooter's opinion, this English fellow existed and wrote about his experiences. I recognized the truth in his words based on my own experience in the matter. If this makes me a troll or whatever you wish to call me, then so be it. Sometimes, its easier to label the speaker rather than consider the worth of a dissenting opinion. Its the easy way out.

I think SS seems to have chosen this tack. No matter. It does not obfuscate the facts here. He seems to have a penchant for labling and the cheap parting shot. I'm betting he does no even know the facts of what I might have posted regarding ammo in old double guns. I'm betting its here say and nothing more.

My posts are all recorded. Let SS do the research and point to the post. I'm betting its about using modern ammo in a black powder era gun. I did piss some folks off about that issue a couple of years ago. I'd do it again too. Shooting modern smokeless loads in a black powder era shotgun is stupid unless the owner knows beyond question his gun can stand it. Most folks do not have the time or money to follow up this needed testing and research.

Why should anyone expect to stand next to another fellow on a trap line and risk everyone's well being and safety. I won't stand on that line with a fool like that. I'll walk away to a safe distance. If he wants to blow his gun and himself to hell, he'll do it without me around. Its simply wiser to buy and use a modern, well made gun with modern ammo. Its the responsible thing to do. Or am I wrong here too?

One thing you must already realize about me, if I know I'm right about something I feel is important and of value to all of us, I will stick to it like glue. I will not budge one inch. Usually, if I'm being that stubborn, its because somewhere along, that problem or mistake cost me or someone I know. I won't spit on the lesson by denying it, regardless of anyone else's personal opinion or feelings. I will hold to what I do know, based on what I've experienced, or seen others go through.

I am glad you have a good gun and are happy with it. Just try not to make the mistake of thinking it represents all other Rizzini shotguns or other folks' experiences. This goes for any gun made by anyone, including the Citori. To think that is a mistake. I realize full well Browning has a repair facility because Miroku workers are human and screw up. However, I do applaude Browning america's efforts to make the problems right. Given the chance, they usually do, even if they are slow. Considering their tremendous popularity and the sheer number of guns sold over the last half century and the different models and types, its amazing to me they get it done as well a they seem to. Rizzini would do well to emulate Browning. Most manufactures would. That should not upset any gun owner and consumer.

Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 98 Location: Illinois

Guest

Just to set the record set straight, I haven't found "a" Rizzini without barrel problems. The total number is six. I've owned four Rizzinis: one B.Riz (Sig TR20U) , two FAIRs, (a Model 400 and a Model 900), one Verona/FAIR (LX501). Throw in my brother's Sig TR30U, and that's five. If you count CG in the Rizzini family category, the number would be six, as my new Magnus is making little black puffs of the orange birds. That would be six for six w/o any problems ... just one consumer's experience with "lacquered trash."

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

My Rizzini CG experience is vast, plain and simple. I have never had a problem with one. They are reliable simple guns.

Of the 9 total "Rizzini Family of Guns" I have patterned none (that means not one) had a POI or convergence problem. The barrels are all laser aligned just like Perazzi.

Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 40

My 20ga CG had a regulation problem when I got it. I sent the pattern and the gun back to CG and they replaced the barrels without any problems. I had the gun back in under 2 weeks. If they come out with a 16ga I will be one of the first in line.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

The only problem my CG Summit Sporting had was the "nut" behind the stock, ME. I just couldn't shoot it well. It hit exactly where you pointed it when patterning it. I just couldn't shoot it well compared to other guns I was using for SC and trap.
I think it had to do with the extra weight of the gun etc.

But the gun itself was great. If I were in the market for a new field gun, I'm not, I would consider one of their 20 ga O/Us.

I still say the 16ga should be on a smaller frame rather than a larger 16ga frame, but that's just me. I'd probably still buy one on a larger frame, just not as quick. Wink

Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 40

I know the deal, and no longer count rings. The CG looked perfect but patterned like crap. I have a Fox that you would look at and swear there is no way that gun would shoot straight. It has the best barrels of any gun I own...

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

16gg,

your propaganda is morally reprehensible. STOP it. You are attempting to damage a company name for no good reason. You have zero experience with the B Rizzini company and I doubt you ever really talked to Bud.

Put your REAL name on the 16 gauge board.

I present this quote from the shotgunworld website for the other people on this board that might have been persuaded to steer clear of Rizzini USA from 16GG.

KT57 WROTE

There are exceptions to every rule. I have an AyA Matador made in 1961 with two barrels that appear to curve gently out from each other until you look at the muzzle end and recognize they come to a well regulated position relative to each other. Being chopper lump barrels, they are cold soldered together, are started wider apart at the chamber ends to leave plenty of chamber wall for strength, and are assembled by hand using traditional methods. Counting rings on this particular gun does not count so to speak. These older Matdors were assembled using older traditional technique no longer used for most of today's production doubles and o/u barrels.

The same goes for most pre-WWII American mass produced double guns. these older guns were cold soldered together by hand and were individually checked and corrected for proper POI via bending, honing the chokes, or twisting the muzzle ends of the barrels to line them up. This is not commonly done today except on some hand built custom double guns still being made via the older, traditional methods.

Most modern production barrel sets start with two straight, preshaped and tapered, pre-choked or theaded steel tubes. the two tubes are lined up in jigs with lazers, the ribs and spacers are put in place, and the set is hot brazed togther. Therein lies the problem. Lining them up in jigs then heating them to a high degree causes warping and twisting that sometimes leaves the barrels curved and twisted out of regulation. If not carefully checked after the process, some of these warped barrels pass through QC and end up on guns.

Some companies like Perazzi reject any barrel sets that are warped, but culling barrels is expensive. Some companies let them through and leave it up to the customer to accept or reject the finished result. Unfortunately, not many folks know this and most newer, less experienced buyers tend to think all barrels are the same. Too bad this is not always true. I was once among these folks. I'm not any longer. I know how to check them properly now.

The B Rizzini warranty was printed on this site a week or so ago. Therein is a clause that states it is up to the customer to identify any obviuos flaw before buying any B. Rizzini gun; obvious flaws will not be covered under the warranty. I'm betting warped, twisted out of line barrels falls under this "obvious flaw" clause. Therefore, I would consider it wise to look carefully before buying the gun.

I'd also urge folks learn to properly do a visual check. Counting rings is not part of a proper check. Aligning them to check straightness is. I've posted the entire process before. If anyone is interested, check my back pages. The information is there. I also do not give any questionable barrels the benifit of the doubt usually unless I'm getting the gun at a very cheap price. Then, I'm accepting the risk with full knowledge that I'm gambling, because the price warrants it.

So, is up to he who buys the gun to do the check. In the case of a long distance deal, its up to the buyer to get a gaurantee of satisfaction or free look before accepting the gun and closing the deal. After all is said and done, its buyer beware in this matter unless the maker will cover the flawed barrels under warranty. Here again, knowing beforehand is the key to the matter. Accepting things on faith might work in god's case, but not when dealing with men.
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PS: Brian M., I am not the one letting warped, misregulated barrels through at the factory. I'm also not the one who put that "obvious flaw" clause in the B Rizzini warranty. I also did not talk to Bud whoever he is personally, nor can I intercede in this matter on a case by case basis for folks who don't know any better. I'm also not the one who makes the decision whether the flaw is obvious or not. I'm speaking truth and if that truth hurts, then let the blame and the responsibility fall on the right shoulders. Let he who is in a position to make matters right do so.

Since I'm just the messenger, my name is immaterial. You've been inferring that B Rizzini guns doe not have bad barrels by claiming the numbers of good guns you've seen or owned, or checked via regulation tests are all good. Now you are admitting some guns do have bad barrels. You could have admitted this early on if you knew about it. This is the first I've heard of this fact from you.

If B Rizzini has decided to improve on their policies and take more responsibility for their own screw ups in this matter and change their loop hole warranty policies, then that is what I've been pushing for. That is a good thing for everyone. The track record of the imported guns bearing the Rizzini name in the past has not been a good one. There are enough older, Rizzini orphans around as witness to this fact. So perhaps progress is being made. We shall see.

However, urging folks to look carefully before buying a gun--any gun, is still a good piece of advice. This, I will continue to do regardless what anyone thinks.

Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 40

Blah Blah Blah - exceptions to every rule... You are full of CRAP 16gg. I am done reading your posts as of now...

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

16GG

when we first started this diatribe I stated that ALL mechanical things can have flaws and problems.

To be honest I started a search of all the various shotgun BBS for unhappy customers of CG and B. Rizzini. I wanted to see if there was any validity in your claim that Rizzini USA has a set of ridged draconian rules regarding their warranty. I was hard pressed to find a single person who had used Rizzini USA for warranty repair. The one that I did find was well taken care of.

The legal ramifications of an open ended warranty can be a nightmare for a company. It is better to set forth rules and expectations so that you can limit product liability. Then if problems with your product arise with said product customer service handles the problem. Ruger does business this way. Remington also will fix, repair and replace things nor covered under warranty.

The old adage applies in this case: learn something you can't read in a book. (experience is the best teacher)

If you notice the poster I quoted had a Sporting gun with 2-3/4" chambers. Those guns are quite old.