16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 59

This may not be the be the best place to bring this up But I think it is the most active..user friendly place to pose this question. Whats up with the price of American doubles I see Marlin model 90's going for $5-600 and savage-stevens SxS's in the same price range and in there day these guns were considered "junk". Why all of a sudden are they getting two or three times the new new price for these guns? . At this rate I should "park" my 525 16 ga and wait fot the price to double or triple.
Scott

Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: Southern Ohio

The American double gun is about the only thing we have left from the Golden Age of shotgunning. The Lefevers, Smiths, Pakers, Ithacas, Bakers, Foxes, and other top quality guns are getting scarce, so now a newer generation has started on the Nitros, Fultons< Stevens, model Bs, and even the hardware brands. I disagree that the Marlin 90 and the Stevens were ever considered junk, that would be rather snobbish.. They were jut a good economical gun that would last a lifetime, for those who couldn't afford the more expensive models.. MDC

Saw ----your question has made me think. In 1962 as a 16 yr. old lad I bought a new / on sale Stevens 311 for the grand total of $62.30! I just ran this through the inflation calculator (net site) and in todays world that amount is $ 401.20 Exclamation

Most 311's I'd say go for around an average of $325 in pretty good shape, some more, some less. This little example FWIW shows a 5 time + increase in price.
I agree with Mel on this, they were considered junk BUT not really. Look at the amount of them that are still shooting. Personally I would pay this 5 + price rather than pay for some klunker made in a mud hut in Turkey to use as a back up gun / give to a young guy.
Amerian made goods are getting scarce, I hate to say. My Wife is a longtime antique dealer here in NY. and I am amazed at what some of Her sales bring. Guess if you want something made in the USA that ain't made here anymore you just gotta shell out for it Smile

Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 50

MD was being politically correct I suppose when he said the other better grade guns were getting scarce? What that equates to is that they are almost out of sight price wise. Thus the guns of yore that were $60 something in the 50's are now $600 something.

I have an LC that I got in 1969 for $135 and my dad has one that he got in 1963 for $100. Now, you couldn't touch either for less than $1000 and that is being conservative.

Just a sign of the times. In those days I used to pay 25 cents for a gallon of gas, too! Wink

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

I think we all can recognise the surge in prices for the 16 ga double gun in general. A decade ago, the average 16 ga brought less than a 12 ga.. Now it is surpassing the 20 ga and gaining on the 28 ga double. I doubt it will ever catch the 28 considering how few were made. However, I believe in many makes of American classic doubles, there were more 16 ga guns made than 20 ga. So its a bit amazing to me that the 16 is worth as much or more than its 20 gauge countretpart today. Scarcity has always been the deciding factor in what determines value--that and condition. I don't know if this is just a short term trend, but it speaks to the strength and utility of the 16 gauge over the 20, at least among those who actually hunt with their classic doubles.

PS: not to pick a fight here, but I doubt many Turkish guns are being made in mud huts. The newer Turkish manufacturing facilities and equipment in them are state of the art. These new facilities put much of what is being used in Europe and America in the shade--certainly in America.

The Turkish gun industry has been around a long time. These folks have been expanding, modernizing, and retooling and are now learning what suits the American market and learning it very rapidly. Much of what is coming out of there is far superior in style, fit, finish and function to what was being produced even 6 or 7 years ago. If the quality vs. price of my two CZ Ringnecks, a 28 and a .410, are any indicator of what we can expect in the future, I'd have to say that future is pretty bright for all concerned.

I do think some of the folks bringing in some of these Turkish guns are "overcapitalizing" a bit too much. However, this has always been true with any line of guns. I remember some of the overdressed, overpriced, and under supported stuff that came out of Japan in the late 1960's to early 1980's like the Golden Eagle shotguns and rifles, some of the Miida line, and a few other names like some of the Weatherby line. However, this sort of thing eventually levels itself out as folks learn what is fairly priced, what is not, and what brands are here to stay.

I think in the next decade the Turkish gun industry will be a world leader in the manufacture of sporting arms and defense weapons. Much of what is being used for componants in many European brands comes out of Turkey now, particularly in many of the Italian guns--like Beretta. Mud huts? I really doubt it. Better take another look there folks.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

The only bad thing I would say about most of the Turkish guns and it's purely a personal thing, they need to put nicer wood on them if they want to compete for sales with people that like and can afford nice looking guns.
I've shot one 16ga CZ and it was a nice gun. Seemed to be well constructed etc. But I've seen nicer wood on some pallets behind the local food market. Wink

I think the problem here is the limited supply of decent, yet affordable walnut available to them. A huge amount of the better Turkish walnut is already regularly snapped up by the established stock wood vendors from all over the world and sold to the likes of Beretta, Miroku, Perazzi, and some of the other better Spanish, German, and Italian gun makers as well as the vast majority of the custom blank market.

Unlike the Japanese who established huge stocks of walnut and other hard woods from all over the globe, plus future rights to existing uncut stands in the late 60's and 1970s or the Americans who still have access to relatively inexpensive supplies of American black walnut within their own borders, the Turks must rely on the walnut that already exists inside their own borders.

However, to help themselves along, I think they need to learn some of the finishing tricks commonly being used elsewhere to improve the looks of the plainer wood they can afford to put on the standard line of guns they produce.

I also think the market for higher end shotguns will take time for the Turks to break into. Right now, I believe they must establish the quality and reliability of their products with the middle of the road shotgun buying public. Once this is an accomplished fact, then they may be able to go after a higher level of clientele. this will take time.

It took the Japanese almost 25 years to establish the worthiness of their offerings to the mainstream buying public. Some folks still turn up their noses at Japanese guns. It has only been in the last 10 to 15 years that higher end Japanese guns are being accepted and admired for their quality and craftsmanship. The Japanese still recognise who their best customners are and still concentrate their efforts wisely.

I doubt the Turks will have it any easier. However, I also think they have taken a lesson from the Japanese experience and are focusing on the same middle of the road clientele. If so, and they continue to steadily improve their quality and style within this level, they will be a force to be reckoned with.

As for me, I recognised long ago that the targets and the birds I shoot do not have a clue what the guns they were shot with look like. All I care about is that the gun be easy to shoot, accurate, strong, reliable, and if a hunting gun, easy to carry within practical limits. If it is thus, and it is not overly ugly or overpriced, then it will work for me. I guess that makes me about as middle of the road as middle can be. The two CZ Ringnecks seem to fit in right well here. Works for me.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

All that said, the wood is still UGLY. Razz

Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: Southern Ohio

As far as I'm concerned, from the ones I've seen, They ugly all over. The barrels look like they're painted with black Krylon paint. And why is the wood proud on all of them.. MDC

TJC, 1976, 7k salary LE, 1980 37k paid in full w/cash large home on 30 acres in Jersey?????????? Hummmmmmm not trying to impune your rep, but with you being from jersey it makes one take pause.

Hey I was down the shore this weekend reading local NJ politic stuff(this is kinda related to the above)
So Corziens little xhottie, who's a union rep(for some state workers) and grosses 100k, just bought a apt in some fancey condo in h-boken little over a mil(they think cash as no one can find a mortage being written on it), she already owns a place (that while not as large or as private as yours) in the country that corzine forgave her a loan she had with him to the tune of 1/2 a mil(that she used to buy out her former husband) on. her reported property taxes are just under 30k per year. Shes on a full scholarship to seton hall or someplace like studing law(how does that cut into her union duties?}
her 2 kids go to privat shool at about 50k for the pair.

We both know that I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but what kinda new math do you guys use that she still has a job and he's not under more corruption charges?

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

30 acres in the country, paid cash for what house and a mere $7K in '80. Only thing you got right is the salary. Very Happy

As far as Corslime and the "ho", give the US Attorney, Chris Christie a little time, he'll find something if there is anything to find.

Also, not to worry, Corslime is having a couple of his people investigate the situation. Yea right.

Fell on the floor and hurt my bad shoulder , I was laughing so hard when I read the article. Hey batman , what the f*** , over. wolves guarding the sheep.
BTW don't use the word ho(specialy with the adj. nappy headed----- thats a jersey thing too , isn't it?) as it offends me, and has very little to do with 16ga. Rolling Eyes

I'll call when I get out of pugatory tonight. you home?

Wow

I don't know anything about Turkey------really embarrassing. Havn't put much effort into learning about it either. The only turkey I know is whats in my woods around my place here Razz

The only Turkish shotguns I have seen in the flesh looked cheap but I do realize that doesn't make all of them klunkers. I need to get around more and learn about these new shotguns... Do they make them in 16 ga. ?

I've shot one 16ga CZ and it was a nice gun. Seemed to be well constructed etc. But I've seen nicer wood on some pallets behind the local food market.

Just what exactly were you doing behind the local food market??