16ga.com ~ View topic

16GG,

You are dead wrong about the weights of the early Rem 870 16ga. guns. I have a 28" plain mod. barrel made in '52 with the checkered stock that weighs 6# 9oz. A friend has a '66 vintage 870 with a 26" mod. vent rib barrel that weighs 6# 11oz. If you look at one of these older 870's you will notice that the barrel diameter is reduced at a 45 degree angle to a diameter appropriate for a 16ga immediately after the receiver. The later models do not do this so the barrels are much heavier. The barrels on the older fixed choke models are also thinner than the newer Rem choke barrels.

We also weighed his brothers 25 year old 20ga Browning upland with a 22" VR fixed choke barrel on the same scale used to weigh our 870's and it weighed 6# 14oz.

Dennis

SL, I acknowledged the early 16 ga. plain barreled 870 models weighed at or under 7 pounds. Some made in the 1950's ( I think the 870 was introduced in 1955?) were at or under 6 pounds, 12 ounces, depending on wood density and barrel length. These were all plain barreled models to be sure.

The lighter weight 16 ga guns also did not have a walnut stock. Many 870 models had a tropical wood related to balsa and similar to mahogany called banak. It looks similarly to dead straight grained walnut but has a more reddish color. I got this info directly from Remington several decades ago when I tried to get a replacement stock for an early 20 ga model built on a 12 ga frame. I was told the only available stocks were walnut and would weigh more. The replacement was all of several ounces heavier to start with and adversely changed the balance of the gun. Fortunately, I was able to hollow out the wood and get it real close to the original.

A couple of years after Remington introduced the model 1100, the recievers for both the 1100 and the 870 were machined a bit heavier to prevent the cracking that was occuring to some of the 1100 models. Since both guns shared the same basic receiver, all were made a bit heavier which added a couple of ounces more.

Remington also increased the weight of the barrels sometime after 1965. There had been some issues about some of the lighter made ones not making proof, especially in the 1100 models. both guns used the same basic barrel blanks as well. so more weight was added.

Remington also stopped using banak in the 870/1100 line before 1968. The stocks were now either walnut or later, birch depending on the model. The stock and forearms were also made stouter and more robust as well. The result was more weight.

The final straw was when remington introduced Remchokes. Plain barrels had been dropped from the line several years before. The vent rib models were already heavier. The increased wall thickness of the Remchoke barrels really increased weight.

Today's 16 gauge Wingmasters are heavy. No getting around it either. They all weigh over 7-1/2 pounds now. I always hoped Remington would come out with a 16 ga 870 and or 1100 built on the LT-20 frame. I doubt this will ever happen. Now that Browning has anwsered our request for a 16 ga BPS on the 20 gauge frame, I could care less what Remington does. I think the BPS is a better hunting gun anyway, and the cost for equivelent models between a BPS and an 870 is not that much either.

I might not be dead on the money about the exact year all these changes took place to the 870/1100 line, but I know the the why and how of it. I've rebuilt and repaired a bunch of these guns for myself and many of my friends over the years. The guns are very easy to work on and the ones in need of repair and refinishing can be had very cheaply. I've owned more than my share of 870 pumps in the past and now own several 1100 models in different gauges and have next to nothing in them. They have all been rebuilt and redone at the cost mostly of some sweat and a bit of knowledge. However, in so doing, I've had a chance to actually see the differences in the componants over the years and have learned a bunch.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I still think everybody is way off the subject. This started out about gentlemen that were interested in the BPS 16 gauge. Then it turns into a discussion about BIG BOX STORES. Well lets turn it into a discussion about writers. I owned a farm in southern Minnesota. This was back when the pheasant population was high. I owned a business in Lakeville Minnesota. I met this one gentleman and we became good friends. He came down and we hunted quite a lot. One day he asked if he could bring a friend down. It was a well known writer and hunter. I agreed. On the aforementioned day here comes my friend and three other hunters with dogs. One a Gordon setter, another a black laband one other I can't remember. Decide to keep my dog penned up. Went hunting, sounded like a marching band. Whistles going of all over the place. Ended up with three pheasants out of at least a hundred. Of coarse those hundred got up 100 yards in front of us. To make a long story short. When done hunting, I let my dog out of the pen. We're staning around BS'ing and my lowly dog walks over and grabs a hen pheasant thats laying in the ditch and brings it to me. Ever since then I have gone with the expectation that the dog is smarter then me and surely smarter then any writer.

Prussian Gun Guy. Why would you think it's Tom Gresham? Well I read my PM. Have fun gentlemen. Just remember, there's not a one of us smarted then our dogs.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I've known some Minnesota writers, and I wouldn't trust 'em either. Smile

Did my first writing for a magazine out of the Twin Cities: Fins & Feathers. They went out of business owing me enough money to have bought a really nice 16.

Speculation? fair enough. we are speculating, hoping, and wishing the new BPS will be just what we want. I'd say this kind of thing happens when any new gun is introduced prior to actual arrival. To us who are hoping and looking forward to actually seeing and hefting one, its like waiting for Christmas morning. We are envisioning ourselves dropping pheasant at wonderous distances with precision we have never before accomplished with any lesser gun. Even our dogs will take notice and will hunt better and love us more for our prowness in the field as they retrieve bird after bird, stone dead to our waiting hands. And why not? This is the hope a new gun brings does it not?

However, you sir, have attempted to throw cold water on our hopes and dreams and have even tried to turn this thread into an infomercial for Cabela's gun rooms. Geez, there Larry, how Grinchy of you.!!! Laughing

Member Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 128 Location: NE

Well, this has turned into quite the discussion. As one of the first responders to the original question I would like to jump back in and expand upon my original reply.
I gave the original poster the information that it was a limited run and that he would now have to find a dealer or distributor that had one or more on order that would be available this fall when they are released. It has been mentioned that several people had them on order for a pretty good price,less than $500. One poster gave a link to a dealer that will have some and is currently taking orders, at the full retail price of $555.

I was interested in purchasing one when I first heard about them, and contacted a couple of dealers. Now out here in the sticks, you don't have much choice. One dealer (a Browning stocking dealer) pretty much said no, showed no interested in ordering one, another (also a Browning stocking dealer) wanted full retail plus a special order fee, and a third made a couple of calls and said he couldn't get one through his regular distributors, but if I could find one and buy it he would do the transfer.

So, where this pretty much left me was the choice of paying full retail plus a special order fee, or the best deal I could find online plus shipping plus a transfer fee(about the only place I could find and order/pay for it myself- not having a dealer order it was the full retail price at the link above). By the time you add these up and throw in some tax it was going to be over $600.

forget that.

berg

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Please note Berg's post, Guy. See what all your hype did? The poor guy can't even get one for MSRP. That's what happens when a product gets hyped before anyone has even had their hands on one. Smile

Time to start looking for one of those nice old 37's . . . Smile

Berg, I suggest you bring up the Browning web page, get the 1-800 number to the Utah corporate office, and call their customer assistance dept. I'm betting the folks there will be able to help you locate a dealer near enough to you so you can get one at a reasonable and fair price. However, these 16 ga BPS models are a limited run and will probably not be discounted much.

This model was kind of my idea from out of the discussions some of us folks have hade here in the past few years. I contacted Browning, asked for it on the behalf of the interested members here including myself. However, I too must pay the long price for mine. So be it. I think the gun will be worth the price all things considered and especially in concideration of the prices and the risk when buying a closely similar used 16 ga pump gun including those tired old 16 ga model 37 Ithacas Larry keeps trying to foist off on us. Rolling Eyes

PS: for the rest of you guys interested in the BPS, I hope Larry's and my mutual chain yanking contest haven't put you off. I'm just playing and I believe he is too. We do this. We are like two pigs wrestling in the mud. Dispite what it might appear to others, and for all the loud grunts, the mud flinging, and the squealing, we are both having a hell of a good time. Laughing

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

We are maybe to some extent missing the point....I know Browning is not always perfect (see the post about the unfortunate forum member who paid $3,000 for a Browning 2 months ago and now he has problems). BUT there are not many major (Note, I said MAJOR---as in Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Beretta, Benelli) manufacturers who will listen anymore, hear that a relatively small contingent of their customers want something specific ---like a 16 gauge with choke tubes for a mid-3-figure price---and make an effort to give that small and rather quirky group of customers what it wants.

I think I'll like the BPS. Even if I don't think it's perfect when it comes, I know that those of us who buy a lot of guns have on occasion paid a hell of a lot more for a firearm than that BPS will cost, and still been major-league disappointed with what we bought once we started using it..

And please don't bring up the Model 37----IF Ithaca ever makes it in 16 ga, and IF Ithaca's newest incarnation makes it past its first line of credit renewal, the 16 gauge it sells will not be available for anything like $555. And I still say the 37 is as scarce around this part of the country anyway, in any age, price or condition, as mammary glands on a male hog.....notice I did NOT say the 37 is a bad gun.....

I like the bps over the 37 for the simple reason of the tang mounted safety, which is similar to a double.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Browning did have the good sense to put the safety in the right place. Of course so does Mossberg . . . Smile