16ga.com ~ View topic - anyone using 1 1/8 --3.25 dram

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

Is that 1 1/8 load too much....found some 16 on sale yesterday, estate 1 oz 2.75 dram#6 so I bought all 12 boxes they have, but they also had some of this heavier load and was wondering has anyone used it, what for,
kind of sounds too much.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

I wish all manufacurers would drop that "dram equivalent"crap Evil or Very Mad

Shotshells need a true velocity,shot size and amount -----That's it.The heavier shells could be used on pheasants,etc.I would save them for the field and not waste that much lead on clay targets Wink

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Sounds like good pheasant fodder. It it twer me, I'd empty the shot out of those estates and replace it with nickel or copper plated shot. It will kill better and pattern tighter with less shot deformation. I would be curious to see what the shot hardnes is in those shells, as well as antimony content. You can take the ol pliers to a bb or two and squeeze. Then compare it to some high antimony, nickel or copper plated shot. I will bet those Estates are packed with softer shot. And, that's fine for open patterns at close to moderate range at best. But hard shot deforms less which helps it penetrate game better, as well as stay in pattern at longer ranges. It all depends on what your hunting situation is. Out here, pheasant is a wide open praire sport. The birds flush a ways out especially with flushing dogs and its often windy too. The birds are wild, tough and usually take to flight on the run. I like hard shot for these birds, same with chukar because they are very tough and in the terrain I hunt, can see or hear you coming from a ways off. Quail are about the only thing I hunt anymore where I can get away with soft shot. This all only applies to wild birds in the State of Washington where we are hunting endless fields of wheat with riparian areas of choke cherries and CRP lands between wheat fields. Chukar of course are in the very hilly sage brush and rocky slopes of the Cascade foothills. Very hard to sneak up on as they are always so high up they have a true "birdseye view" pun intended. By the time you get to the birds you usually have one sweaty and out of breath chance to make a good shot on birds flushing out fron about 15-30 yards away. Then the chase starts all over again - only next time the birds are even more wary and spread out.
Its a young man's sport for sure. problem is, I'm 48 and my hunting partner is 58. Fortuntely we stay in great shape - but my partner did have a heart attack last year just before hunting season. He got into the hospital very quickly and had stents placed. Now he seems healthier than ever and quit smoking. He's my brother and the only remnant left of my family. I sure hope he's around much longer. He's as much a father to me as a brother.

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 43 Location: Minnesota

I tried a box of the Estate 6''s last season on wild North Dakota pheasants. I thought they performed well and I didn't see any difference between them and Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 5's.

My brother and I bagged 30-plus roosters last season with our 16's, all wild late-season birds, hunted over flushing dogs. Most of them we had to pry out of the cattails. I only recall losing one bird. We used mostly Fiocchi, with the one box of Estates.

I recommend either for pheasants.

-20m3s

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

I think the velocity on that 1 1/8 oz load is in the 1285 range.
Just was not sure if it was too much or not, there was some discussion about the max load vs. pattern and shot deformation and the advice was to stay around 1 oz max and 2 3/4 dram for best results....

http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/articles/balance_loads_article.html

by this article this load is huge, and so the recoil etc.....but it is best to hear it from experinced 16 guagers

The web sight is interesting as all expert opinions are. The question of best loads has been faught out on every web sight with a wide selection of answers. After reading them there seems to be only one common thought. Take your choice to the pattern board or splatter board and see what your shotgun and choke will do with the ammo you decide to use. The debate on shot size and load size will be going on long after you make your decission. Last year I had 1 1/4 oz. #6's that took S. Dakota birds and I never did think about shot string and the birds died inspite of my shell selection. These were old Remington Sure-shot loads. I don't recommend the load but it worked for me that one time.
Best,
Ron

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I've killed hundreds of pheasants (no exaggeration--I've lived in Iowa most of my life and hunt pheasants a LOT) with that 3 1/4 DE-1 1/8 oz load, including a bunch fired through an old German Sauer which wasn't really built for them. Used to be able to find 2 3/4 DE-1 1/8 oz loads, which I like better. I've also used the Fed 1 1/4 oz mags, but if you have a very light 16, that one can kill on both ends. Did take a 25# gobbler with one, however--but that was in an old Stevens double, pretty heavy.

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

pretty light merkel 6 pds 1 oz..............so it is worth asking questions first and iceing face later. Very Happy

Guest

If you can ever get your hands on the research that Tom Roster and Bob Brister have done on shot, you'll find that the amount of antimony is very low in both copper and nickel "plated" shot which is really a wash rather than being plated. Fiocchi also claims to have nickel plated shot but some people have also said its antimony was ver low. That being said, maybe your gun likes these loads and patterns them very well. You'll never know until you take them out to the board and check out several loads. Probably the best lead (highest antimony) you can get is West Coast Shot out of Carson, NV. I don't know if they're still producing shot but being in California, I'll buy a bag in #5 or 6 whenever I come across one. I don't think for clays or preserve bids that you need the premium loads but it certainly doesn't hurt for the wild pheasants.

Most off shore plated shot is just chilled or black shot with a wash as you say Terry. However, Lawrence copper plated shot starts with magnum shot and then the wash is applied. It is good stuff too.

A copper or nickel wash does not necessarily harden shot. However, it makes the shot slipperier and also protects the bore from leading. This last point was more important before the advent plastic wad cups and wrappers.

Winchester used to refer to copper washed shot as Lubaloy. They pretty much reserved its use for premium waterfowling loads because the shot also penetrated thick coats of feathers a bit better than plain shot of equal size at identical velocities.

If you are already using magnum shot of a proper size for the game being hunted and at a high enough velocity to ensure good penetration, plating will do very little more for you. However, if the load you are using is a bit marginal, like # 6 pellets at 1150 FPS at a longer than normal range, the plated shot will add a bit of penetration and can make a difference between a cleanly killed bird and a wounded one.

I've never seen any real advantage from plated shot in my normal 16 ga hunting loads. However, I do not hunt with vintage guns. Here, limiting recoil stress on old wood can be important. Both velocity and the shot charge weight must be limited to do this. A one ounce load of shot for pheasant pretty much restricts us to #6 shot or smaller. Here, plating can be an advantage. However, stick with Lawrence brand plated shot. Its the hardest plated shot made as far as I know.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I don't think the plating makes as much difference as does the buffering. Most of the "short mag" loads tend to pattern tighter--and I know this to be true, because I've patterned them--than do non-buffered loads. You need to check and see if you're buying not only plated loads but also buffered loads. If you are, chances are you will end up with a tighter pattern--if that's what you're looking for. The tradeoff (in addition to more recoil) will be slightly reduced velocity and energy vs the 3 1/4-1 1/8 oz loads.

Guest

In Bob Brister's "bible" of "Shotgunning; The Art and the Science" there was a section in "How good is your duck load" which would be applicable to pheasant since it was written with lead shot at the time.

Bob Brister wrote:

"Handloading authority Tom Roster has produced custom handloads that consistaently crowd 100 percent patterns at 40 yards and show impressing killing patterns at 60 yards from even a relatively light 1 1/4-ounce payload (Roster was discussing a 12 gauge load-ti)"

"Roster's theory to which I wholeheartedly subscribe, is that the important thing is now how many pellets are thrown into the air in the hope that some of them arrive within the pattern circle, but the launching of nondeformed pellets that will fly straight and remain in the pattern. In order to do this, he has cut down on total pellets (his 3-inch 12-guage magnum loads contain only 1 1/2 ounces as compared with 1 58 or 1 7/8 ounces in factory loads) yet the Roster loads consistently put more pellets into the pattern at 60 and 70 yards than did factory magnum 10-gauge loads. His 10-gauge loads, better still, showed killing capability at 70 yards, which I have never seen duplicated by any load of any kind."

"The secret was using extra hard shot (Winchester copper-coated Lubaloy) packed with common household flour to fill in crevices and equalize pressure around each pellet and prevent pellets from moving against each other and deforming at ignition."

"If there is a problem with such loads, it is perhaps in the fact that discussing killing ranges out to 60 and 70 yards may encourage excessive skyblasting by shooters who may have little idea how far those ranges really are."

Even with the references that Brister was discussing duck loads, this entry was discussing how to make the most effective load. But like anything, if your loads are so tight at even 40+ yards, what would they be at 20 yards and what shape would the game be if hit at only 20+ yards. I see guys at the rifle range that are so proud of their subminute guns but can even put a decent group with bags at 100 yards. Every one has their own "wheel house" of where they can effectively and consistently kill birds and shoud come up with a custom load that fits their own criteria. That's the beauty of handloading versus buying factory ammo which may be close but won't be perfect for the critical shooter.

This is a great thread. I ordered some copperplated 6s today. I'm interested in something in a 1 1/16th, 2 3/4 dram, not too big or too hot. I have a brand loyalty to Hodgdon and load my 1 oz. loads with Universal Clays. Anyone have a favorite load they like?

-16ga

Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 27

I agree that the dram equivelent stuff can be confusing and would be better if the box just gave the velocity. I just got a Fiochi catalog the other day and it is interesting that Fiochi not only publishes the pressure but also the standard deviation of the velocity of their shells. I noticed that the higher velocity shells usually have a higher deviation.
That company makes a good quality 16 ga shell. Their 1 1/8 oz load comes with either 2 3/4 or 3 1/8 dm eq. I've used both on Pheasants and never did notice a difference in killing power even though there is obviously a difference in velocity. Maybe I just shot the birds within a reasonable range. If given a choice in 1 1/8 oz loads, i'll take the lower velocity shell any day. Sure feels a lot better.