16ga.com ~ View topic - To trim or not to trim when using roll crimps

I am using the following 16 ga pheasant load from Ballistic products:

BP multi-hull, win 209, 21.5 gr. Unique, BP SP16 wad and 1 oz. 5 1/2 nickel plated shot. Stated psi 8700, FPS 1220.
The load patterns well, but I want to use a roll crimp so that I can ID my loads by marking the overshot card accordingly and I especially like the way that a roll crimp looks. Using my drill press, my first attempts were failures and I then had great success with a hand held portable drill motor.
I do not like using the BP hull trimming tool and I wondered why not use the full length hull with spacer(s)? So, I put a 1/4” Federal 16ga fiber wad that weighs 9.4 gr. on top of the powder and then inserted the BP S16 plastic wad, and finally an overshot card. I then roll crimped the hull. The result is perfect in terms of fit, but the 9.4 extra weight bothers me and I will not shoot the shell until I can be satisfied that the pressures are acceptable . My question to you knowledgeable reloaders is: Will the insertion of the 1/4” fiber wad change the pressure beyond a safe range and are you familiar with a wad column that would take up the extra space and preclude hull trimming or any other means to accomplish my non-trimming goal?

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Oh Boy, I can't wait to hear the answers to this one.
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea placing a fiber wad under the plastic wad. I think you'll loose something.
I would much rather trim a hull, to acheive a good crimp. Instead of placing unknown artifacts in the hull to take up space. Wink

Guest

I have to agree with Dave. I would much rather use a filler inside the wad's shot cup leaving the base of the wad to obterate the wad. As far as the extra 9.5 grains go I wouldn't be concerned but if you are just reduce your shot charge by 4 pieces of shot.

Trying to stay with the concept of not trimming hulls (I can always trim the hulls when the mouth of the roll crimp wears). I removed the insert from a 20 ga Lage wad, trimmed it to 1/4” (wt. 4.7 gr.) and placed it, legs down, inside a SP16 plastic wad. Close to the same configuration of a Lage wad. The shell crimped perfectly and if a thunder storm had not come up, I would have patterned the load.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

jshultz--(I don't want Dave to have to wait very long Wink

)
Your grandfather shot all his ammunition with card wads over powder, generally a 'nitro card' rather that a fiber wad however. It seems possible to me that the card might interfere with the obduration of the skirt on the plastic wad, but I know of no data either way.
If you dislike the trimming of your hulls, why don't you just use a fiber/card stack altogether? Winchester used this configuration early in the plastic hull days and placed a simple plastic 'wrap' atop the cards to offer some shot protection. Such wraps are currently available from Ballistic Products---Mylar I believe.
Now it goes without saying that pressures will drop if and when you substitute cards for plastic wads----you should consider that, but there is some data for Unique using card stacks.
Perhaps you might consider rolling a few of what you think will meet your needs and send them to Tom Armbrust (see 16ga. reloading group) for testing. You've got plenty of time 'til you shoot at those 'parrots. Very Happy

Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 50

I am curious, why use the shot cup at all? When roll crimps were the standard, fiber was also the standard so adjust your fiber column to what you need to make a good roll crimp.

Personal opinoin here, but I don't like mixing technologies from different time frames.

If I am missing something in this thread and this is a stupid suggestion, I stand ready to be enlightened.

Roll Crimp
Your namesake is the reason that I posted this thread and your response is not stupid, more than likely the thread has a problem in that area. I am new to 16 ga. reloading and have discovered components are impossible to get locally. Mail order is my only option and I ordered the multi wad from BP and the resulting 1 oz. loads look good and pattern excellent.
In the past I have had problems identifying my different hunting loads after they get out of the box. In addition to looking good, I thought that roll crimps could be a solution by marking the end of the hull with load ID.
I have on hand four different types of wads: 1/4” Federal fiber wad, 3/8” Alcan fiber wad and 1/2” Alcan combo wad with gas seal, all left over from the 70's. The hull trimmer that I have (new from BPI) cuts the hull okay, but accuracy is difficult for me unless I mark the hull before cutting. Because the 1/4” wad took up just the right amount of space and the roll crimp was perfect, I wondered if anyone had used a spacer in a plastic wad. The Lage wad does exactly that and I used an insert after trimming same. The bottom line: I would prefer to not trim the hull, use a plastic wad and roll crimp the load. So, that’s my story as dumb as it maybe.

A Ballistic Products Inc. catalogue arrived yesterday and this morning I was delighted to see a variety of 16 Ga. 1 piece plastic wads and a felt filler wad, 20 Ga. designed to take up space for that perfect crimp. Although that perfect crimp was shown as an 8 pt star crimp, I will attempt a roll crimp. Thank you one and all for your response my unenlightened thread.

jschultz,

You are travelling down a road I have been pondering for some time. I also have the same problem with hull id after reloading, and thought roll crimps were a good solution. BP also makes those little hull stickies that fit over the base of the shell, but for some reason I'm not crazy about that idea. I, like you, also prefer the way roll crimps look, especially for vintage guns like my Lefever. Where I part with you is that I would have no problem trimming to get the right crimp, although you are right, it would be great if I didn't have to. I have been trimming with just a razor blade since I don't have a hull trimmer yet, but I thought about making one with a wooden jig and blade holder, with measured spacers for different cutting lengths.

Please keep us informed as to your progress, so you can be our guinea pig, er, I mean our statistical variability mitigator Cool

Have fun!

I patterned three loads with the Lage insert and the results were good. Monday, I will order some 1/4” felt filler wads and load and pattern. At one time I bought yellow colored, round paper sticky labels from a office supply co. I didn’t like them because they either fell off and left a sticky residue or had to be removed and left a sticky residue.