16ga.com ~ View topic

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Just picked this ejector gun up for a couple a hundred....any clues as to what it is? Proof marks are the usal crowned oval with ELG. Also, Diamond with 12 over C. Its chambered for 2 3/4 12GA. Should I limit pressures on loads?
D=70/20.6 then on one side of flats is the following:

*N over stick figure of lion over PV over *P over EL over candle stick over diamond with 12C in it, over crowned oval with ELG.

Then the Number P. 1K242.3
Serial number is the only other marking except gold inlaid "S" under safety.

Just forward of action on the bbls is: Choke 17.5/18.3

The EL I cited apperas as that but its kind of scriptive. The "E" is definite but the L I'm not sure because its slightly superimposed over the "E". Serial number on forend matches serial number on bbls and receiver. Here are some PIX;

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Here's markings on bbl flats:

You're such an artist. Try this:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm

The most info I've ever seen on Belgian guns. You still may never know who made it. Way too many Belgian makers suffered the ravages of WWII.

Good Luck.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Thanks Pruss:

Been there, done that. I've figured out everything except who made it. And youre right, I may never know. Some cottage gun maker that needed beer money, or who knows?. Its a nice gun though and Revdoc sez the bbls weigh 2.34 Lbs so its a nice light 12GA that I should prolly shoot 1 1/8 ouncers in. I will test it out on doves in 9 days...oh yes, I will.

That gun won't have seen that much duty that I'll give it in a day, prolly in its whole life by the looks of it. I would at least like to verify date of production which may be the "P" code.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Was this gun a good buy at 200 bucks? How much is it worth out on the market. I'm assuming because of the rhombus on point with the 12C in it that the gun is 1924 or earlier. Can't believe its in as good a shape as it is for being that old. I've seen guns in worse shape from the 80's. Must have sat in a closet somewhere for quite a while.

I'd say potentially an extremely good buy BUT it's probably 50-60 years past a good check and clean, and possibly in need of some attention to the head of the stock. Personally, in light of it's age, I'd have the stock glasbedded then shoot all the 1 oz target and 1 1/8 oz bird loads I wanted Very Happy

Even with a $200 smith bill, you got a great deal Cool

jig; In the upper left corner and on the middle right side are the letters E L overlapping each other. That is the Belgian provisional black powder proof mark. The N with a star over it is the Belgian inspector's mark. The lion figurers indicate marks on Belgian guns sent from Liege to be proofed at a foreign proof house. It is odd that the Belgian proof mark for definitive prood is also on the barrels ( crown on oval with E L G in the oval) An R under a crown on the barrels would indicate that they were proofed for smokeless. Hope this information helps some; if not more confusing. Good luck

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Yeah, but my fear is that that 200 dollar smith bill will turn into much more. You know how it goes. Those good doubles guys aren't cheap. But they are far and few between - which is why they aren't cheap. It feels so tight I think I will prolly just shoot it as is this season and then maybe send it on to Kearcher in the Spring. Have it cleaned up real nice and put about 600 bucks or so into it. Even though the rust blue is pretty good overall, I'd like to get the two rust pits on the bbl exterior removed, then re-blued. There is also a hairline crack about 1/2" long just where the stock meets the receiver (do tell). Hopefully that crack won't grow. But, shooting it this season will let me know just what I'm willing to put into it money wise. If it works real good for me and feels natural, it will be worth it to me even though I may not ever get the money back out. Then again, I may dislike the way it works for me and sell it to someeone else for 200 bucks. Time will tell. If the hairline crack grows and I really love the gun, I will be looking at maybe more than 600 bucks even. I'm excited about it right now because I love the feel of it and the swamped rib. And, I feel like there isnt a gun around at a better value than this 200 buck beauty. Really can't lose at that price.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I thought the lion over the PV indicates its nitro-proofed.
This gun doesnt have the Crown with the R. Does that mean I can't shoot modern shells in it? I just checked the belgian proof marks legend that Revdoc showed me and you are right, the crown with an R is for smokeless.

But the lion over PV just means nitroproofed and not done in a foreign place. At least according to what I read.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Oops frogot to add... REVDOC is also right in that this gun has to be (according to it's marks) 1924 or earlier vintage. Wow! its in real great shape for that age.

I hate to sound all parental now, but if you won't see a gunsmith before the season opener (I know, there just isn't enough time) at least limit yourself to low recoil, low pressure shells.

And keep a watchful eye on that cracked stock. Especially in the dove fields. Do you have another gun. Take 2.

Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: Southern Ohio

Gentlemen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always had the understanding that a "Guild" gun was just that, a gun mad by members of a guild. A joint effort by an actioner, a Barrelsmith, a stocker etc. hence no name on the gun.. MDC

MD: I think the 'Guild gun' moniker was something we came up with to call 'no name' utility grade Begian made SxSs.
There were a number of gunmaking cooperatives:
Manufacture Liegeoise
Syndicat liégeois pour la fabrication des armes de guerre, The Liege Trade Union of Gun makers. Its members were: Jules Ancion and Co., Laloux and Co., Auguste Francotte, and Pirlot & Fresart.
Manufacture d’Armes à Feu liégeoise

This Jamar Frères only had a maker's mark on the inside of the base plate

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Thanks Pruss - yes, I will go low pressure on Dove day of course, or any other time for that matter with that gun. I will keep my eye on the stock too.
Its only a matter of time on that crack. Anybody have any good ideas for me to keep the crack at bay until I can afford to restock it?

Though this gun is an inexpensive guild gun, should I really like it, I'd like to preserve it honorably because its a 1924 or earlier arm. Also, its very light and would be a great quail & chukar gun for long days afoot. Plus, it looks cool too with it's swamped rib and fine engraving. The wood is also very pretty and of high quality.

jig: your gun and your choice, but shooting that gun with the crack is likely to be a several hundred dollar bad decision. No need to have it re-stocked, just let a good stock guy fix it right and it's good for another 80 years.