16ga.com ~ View topic - The Marlin 90 & 3/4OZ loads back from Canada

Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Atlanta, GA

Congrats and great pics.

Weagle
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MARIJUANA JOINT

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Pleased your trip was successful (I told you so! Laughing

) I'll try to return you call this P.M. Been on a trip myself..........
Ron

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This is a pic of the Old Van that I purchaced for the bird trips this fall , It is a Ford 250 Econovan , this old cargo van had no back seats so I had to make all of this up and install , fix and weld up all the holes in the thing , put a new crate engine and transmission, new brakes , ect. I have 3K in the whole thing not bad for a hunting buggy that I have a feeling already has a posi track rear end , We went places we should not have gone in this old van This is Ben getting ready to head out so I thought I should have a Pic of the crate that got us to Canada.

Story to follow this weekend when the machines are all loaded and running .

Regards Charles

P.S. Birdswatter I would love to tell you all about it , but if it doesnt come to pass I dont want to look like a Big OUFFF. So we shall see if anything comes of it and at that time I think you will not need me to tell you about it , everyone will know all about it. Just remember I AM DOING SOMETHING , not just complaining about the demise of the 16ga. , I am jumping up and down about the Impending Rise of the 16ga. to come.
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I have just a small amount of time , so I will start of by saying this was THE MOST REMARKABLE AND FUN HUNT I HAVE EVER BEEN ON. I will not tell most of what happened for it would have to fall under the Fiction Catagory , No one would ever believe it , with that said we will contain the trip to the hunting , loads , guns , dogs and such.

The guns we took are as follows , Doc took 2 guns , one a Browning Superposed 2 bbl set in 20ga, and as his backup he took his dads Browning A-5 in 20ga , 8 boxes of #4's and #6's , that his dad had back in the 70's

Terry took his Marlin 90 26" bbl in 12ga , as a backup he borrowed one of my Marlin 90's with 30" bbls in 12ga , for his shells he took the Winchester SuperSport 1 1/8 OZ 7 1/2 shot at published velocity of 1300 fps My suggestion for a factory shell.

Ben took the 16ga Marlin 90 28" bbls choked .005 and .016 , at 6 Lbs 4 OZ
he also took my heavy Darne at 6 Lbs 3.5 OZ choked .010 and .020 for his shells he took 2.5" shells, 2 boxes with 7/8OZ of 7 1/2 shot at 1220fps 2 boxes 13/16 OZ at 1270 fps all of our load were 7.5 shot size
2 boxes of 3/4OZ at 1270fps and 1 box of Federal 1OZ of 7.5 shot ,
1box of Winchester 1OZ 7.5 shot .

I took the 26" Marlin 90 at 5 lbs 13.5 OZ choked .005-.008 , I took the Marlin 90 28" that I shot the State Shoot with choked .016-.026 , and I also took the light weight Darne at 5lbs 10 OZ choked .008-.016 , The shells I took was 2 boxes of 3/4OZ 7.5 at 1410 fps , 2 boxes of 3/4 OZ , 7.5 @ 1325 fps , 1 box of 3/4 OZ at 1250fps 1box Federal 1 OZ 7.5 , 1 box of Remington 1 OZ 7.5 and 1 box of Winchester 1 OZ 7.5 .

Gotta go machines done will post later

Regards Charles

We left the Lake of the Ozarks at 4:30 PM Thursday evening after we all got off work, all of that is except Ole Ben he just lounges around all day loading shells and making contacts , Smiling , gottcha Ben .

We drove thru the night and on the way about 9 PM that evening I gave Floyd Montclair our guide to be for the next day a call to tell him that we were on our way and to confirm the meeting location for the next day.

We arranged to meet at a little Indian Store at 7:30 AM boy it sure is a good thing that we made it that late for we arrived only minutes before Floyd did . We made the introductions and Floyd and Casper lead the way with his truck to a cattle guard and passed thru , now mind you I didnt have any clothes changed or anything ready , everone else was pulling boots and changing clothes while I was driving.

We had gone no further than a 100 yards down this road and up jumped a group of Sharptail about 300 yards further another group jumped and went a short distance now we were going thru some private ground to get to the Indian lands and couldnt hunt these birds , went another 250 yards and we came to the Indian lands and had no more than passed thru the gap than Casper motioned for us to get out that he had birds spotted.

Like I said I had yet to change or pull a gun out let alone find some shells , So I told everone to go and get em , in the mean time I went to the back of the Van to change out some clothes and pull some boots on , well I get one boot one and the shooting starts , I pull the other boot on and dismissed tying the shoe laces instead I move to the side doors of the Van and attempt to see the shooting going on , from this vantage point I could see no birds falling OH well must be dropping on the other side of the Van where I could not see them , I manage to get a gun pulled out and grabbed a couple of shells and head to where the action is going on ,, Or so I thought , Smiling .

I make my way tward Casper on the passenger side of the truck he was motioning me forward and said that a bird was in the tall grass next to the fence, I walk to the specified location and sure enough a single Grouse gets up , it was an easy shot , I heard Casper say to Floyd after I shot this Grouse , ONE OF THEM CAN SHOOT ! I was a bit puzzled at this then I ask how many everone had down and did we need to get the dogs out for any cripples ????

Well it sounded like a range war and no one else had taken a single bird , at this the Truck that the guides were sitting in was bouncing all over the place ( you can look at the Pics of Floyd and Casper these guys are none too little ) I caught Floyd say to Casper THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG DAY ! having a heart felt chuckle to say the least .

We continue down the road then all of a sudden we take over this grass covered hill and out across these VERY ROLLING hills I was unsure the Van would make it at all but you know what that old crate goes like a billy goat and we kept up with our guides with no problems , we go approx 2 miles back in the middle of no where and the truck stops they spotted Sharptail on the flat we were on ahead of us about 100 yards so we kick out the dogs and off we go , Scott and Terry got some shots but no birds , I stayed with Ben at his pace thus not getting to shoot at the group , off everone goes chasing birds that we watched down , I came back up on this knoll and Ben and I noticed Peach getting real birdie , then this bird jumped up at approx 50 yards I shot and the bird went down with Peach retreaving it in a hurry , now Ben and I had something to talk about , he was Observing the birds taken with what loads and the distances with the number of cripples and the numbers that fell dead .

This group of birds eluded Scott and Terry totally with no birds taken , yes some shots were taken but no birds fell, we went on across to a wheat field and run along aside the fence to a path alongside another fence and went back about 500 yards to another patch of grass and Floyd told us to walk it twards a patch of sunflowers about 1 mile away and they would take Ben and meet us there , so Ben drove the Van with them leading the way to patch of sunflowers .

We entered the grass and jumped a ton of Pheasants , on we go and Scott and Hunter goes on point at the end of a down sloped finger up the birds go with Scott downing 2 at this point with a double , Terry and I watch 2 birds down that went up hill above us and Scott went after the ones that went straight ahead down the hill, Terry and I went above where the birds landed and came down the hill on them and in the mean time we missed our landing zone by one small draw and didnt find the birds so we went to th next draw and sure enough Peach went on Point , I told Terry to get ready and take the bird , well the bird was getting away so I went ahead and shot with Terry doubling up on the bird as well , then the second bird got up with me taking that bird , it was on my side and Terry could not shoot for me being in the way . Peach made both pickups and returned the birds to hand .

We made our way to the pickup point with no action , we did hear Scott shooting and found out that he had taken another double and had jumped 2 more groups at the edge of the Sunflowers .

We went to another location where I took Pictures and left the gun in the Van , Oh by this time Terry had put up his 26" Marlin 90 and dug out the gun I had loaned him for a backup another Marlin 90 in 12ga with 30" tubes and choked Mod and IM , then the fun began for Terry he took many a bird from that point on , the birds were just out of range for the .004 and .012 choke in the 26" bbls that I had just fitted to his gun for this trip , so now I am one less shotgun he just had to have it after the second day out , we finished the day with Floyd and Casper saying that it wasnt such a long day after all .

Now Ben and I had lots of things to discuss about loads , guns and applications with more interesting things to come about the use of the Darnes and Factory loads coupled with the 3/4 OZ loads , after this day was over Ben had a little better appreciation of what the 3/4 OZ loads would do at long range but he was determined to play the old timer and use the slower heavier 13/16 and 7/8 OZ loads at convenitonal velocities of 1220 and 1250fps the results are very interesting and won me the wonderful Donughts that only Ben can find in these out of the way places ( I dont care for Krispy Kreems or Duncan Donughts) so if I wanted real good Donughts then I was going to have to keep winning the bets with Ben , Smiling Thanks for the Donughts Ben , we are working on some new bets as we speak .

More to come later on .

Regards Charles

This is to the Gentelman from Ontairo that Met with Ben at Gravelbourg , I forgot you monitor the site but cannot get my email with out being a member , so her it is aaprecision@yahoo.com for you folks that are wondering what this is about I will write about it in the up coming pages

Sorry you didnt get to meet Peaches she would have loved to meet your setters , Oh and Thanks for the water bucket, water and gun oil we made good use of each.

Regards Charles

Sorry about being so tardy with the postings but since I have gotten back I have had little to no time at all , had to work a 24 hr at the Hospital on Friday went into work at 4:30 AM and got off at 3:03 AM the next morning it has been this way since I returned , took the evening off and will post on the bets I had with Ole Ben.

Ben and I had been discussing loads and effectiveness of said loads on birds all summer also the different guns came in to the discussions as well .

Ben is of the Old School in the areas of Velocity, He maintained that a Velocity of 1250 fps and under was the ticket for all upland hunting , with 1180-1220 fps being just right with 13/16 - 7/8 OZ of shot in 7 1/2 shot.

I on the other hand advocate light loads of 3/4 - no more than 7/8 OZ of 7 1/2 shot at High Velocities for Pheasants and Grouse preferably above 1400 fps and 1250 - 1300 fps for quail sized game.

We also had a bet on the effectiveness of the Darne's versus the Marlin 90's with Ben saying the Darne would be as effective as the Marlin at longer ranges I on the other had said the Darne would be a short range shotgun only . We had been playing on the Skeet Fields and I have taken to the Darne like a duck to water , ( AT SHORT RANGE ) I can run a round of skeet with the Darne from a low gun like it is easy , but try as I might I cannot shoot a round of Trap with the thing at all breaking 15-20 at best .

For the 2 out of the 3 days we were in the Dakota's we both alternated with the two types of guns I could NOT KILL A BIRD WITH THE DARNE and for that matter Ben could not as well , The birds were just too far away , now Ben said he didnt understand for the chokes were the same as the Marlins ,
.010 - .020 for the Darne Ben was shooting and .008 - .016 for the one I shoot ,

I told Ben the difference is like a Long Bow and a Compound Bow , at 100 yards on a good day I can take a compound bow shoot 6 arrows that you can put your fingers around on the one hand , now I cannot do this with a Longbow or Recurve but on the other hand I can take inside of 20 yards and have someone pitch up a Tennis ball and for the most part I can put a Flu Flu arrow thru the ball the biggest part of the time with my Recurves or Longbows , this is something I have tried with the Compound and cannot do .

I told Ben the Compound is like a Trapgun it is for a structured game and long ranges ,,, The Darne is like the Longbow it is purely Instinctive shooting for me , The Marlin 90 is short range and long range , this is the difference I can shoot long range and Instinctive with this gun but cannot do so with the Darne .

After the trip was done and I had yet to kill a bird with the Darne and Ben only shooting 1 dove at 50 yards + it was the only thing to fall to the Darne's after giving this analogy and putting the shoe leather to the ground Ole Ben ceaded that it was not the loads nor chokes it was the handling qualities of the Darne that makes it a wonderful Instinctive short range shotgun but it is not for long range , but the Marlin does both long and short range , now I cannot wait to get in the close cover with the Quail this fall the Darne will be with out equal except for the Marlin for this type of shooting , SCRATCH ONE UP FOR ME , I JUST LOVE THE DOUGHNUTS THAT BEN BUYS WITH A CUP OF TEA !

Ben also done more testing and observing than hunting I might add, he was watching and measuring off the birds I shot and documenting what loads and whether or not a clean kill or a cripple , after compiling all of the data collected he found out that the 3/4 OZ 7 1/2 shot at 1410 fps took birds with almost NO CRIPPLES out to 70 + yards and the load that I didnt want to take the Remington 1 OZ of 6's was the second best load that we took I must say I am glad that Ben talked me into taking this load for it opened up my eyes, you just cannot overlook anything.

The other loads worked well in close out to the 40 yard mark but produced lots of cripples , I will stay with my 3/4 OZ of 7 1/2 shot at 1410 fps and will be taking that load exclusivly for the Pheasants when I leave for the Indian Reservation this Friday the 12th for the opener on the 13th in the Dakota's

The donughts were piling up on this trip Ole Ben sure can find the good ones I might add He must smell them or something , Scratch another two up for me .

Then when we got home the Test from Tom Armburst was here on the 1400 fps load , Ben said the PSI would be way too high I said the load would go under 10,200 psi and be consistant , we already found this to be true over our chrony , the load data is as follows

Chedditt hull new primed
18gr of Rex - 1
gualandi 1618 wad
3/4 OZ of 7 1/2 shot

Velocity 1410 fps
pressure 9,200 psi

Hurrah another Donught for me , I shared this load with Larry Miles out in OR, he hunts Chucker almost exculisively , Larry worked some loads up with Red Dot and tested them for patterns called me up one night and said to me , THE PEOPLE ON THE NET ARE ALL WRONG ABOUT 3/4 OZ LOADS BEING FOR SHORT RANGE , I said what have you found ? Larry went on to tell me that he was getting upper 90% patterns with the 3/4 OZ of 7 1/2 and # 7's and consistancy was out of this world with an extream variance of 2 fps he sent these loads off and had them tested as well and found out that he was in the 11,000 psi range with Red Dot doing 1350 fps. Not as low a pressure as he would have liked for his old guns but it is what he has loaded up for Chuckers shooting them in the Marlin 90 for Larry had them tested at 20 degrees as well and the pressures dropped down to a very acceptable level with no appreciable drop in velocity .

I told him welcome to the world of long range tight chokes and small payloads of 7 1/2 shot or #7's at 1400fps or faster is the ticket to longrange upland birds and clean kills not the rompem stompem heavy loads that kick like a mule , everone says you cant do what I am doing with these loads , well all I have to say is give me a call and I will meet you in the Dakotas this coming weekend and we shall hunt side by side and you can document the yardages the birds are shot and the numbers of cripples , we shall see if my gamebag is lighter than yours and then you can post it to the fourm for all to see.

My cell # is 573-280-8548 we will be staying in Mobridge SD and hunting Standing Rock Reservation anyone is welcome to come along I will give you directions and make reservations for you as well let me know how many . We will be getting there on Sat morning the 13th of Oct .

Everone is welcome to come and hunt with me it will be a good time , especially anyone shooting a Marlin 90 .

Regards Charles Hammack

Member Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 123 Location: Oregon

Charles, you forgot to add that you cut those 2 3/4" hulls down to less then 2 1/2" with that load since you aren't adding any filler.

My load is:

2 3/4" new primed Cheddite hull or any Cheddite hull with the Winchester 209 primer
17 grains of Red Dot
Trap Commander wad (TUWZ2M16)
3/4 oz. shot
1/4" plastic over the powder wad
11,100 psi at 90 degrees
1350 fps at 90 degrees
9800 psi at 15 degrees
1314 fps at 15 degrees

Since they pattern so tight at 20 yards, even in my cylinder barrel, I reduced the powder to 15 grains and added a Spred-R disc and a 28 gauge .125 card wad in the bottom of the shot cup and eliminated the 1/4" plastic over the powder wad which tested at 9130 psi and 1250 fps at 90 degrees and 8300 psi and 1227 fps at 15 degrees. But in my Sterlingworth it only clocks 1200 fps at 72 degrees and 1150 fps at 20 degrees with very little recoil. Even the 17 grain load is easier on me then anything else I've used for hunting.

I'm leaving in the morning for some chukar hunting. If I find any they will be in trouble if I do my part...

Larry

The second day in the Dakota's was as eventful as the first found lots of birds with everyone shooting better ( Smiling ) .

The Indian Guides were feeling lots better about us by that time . Scott wanted the Guides for the second day so he hired them for that day, I could only afford them for the first day, that is why we had these folks service for 2 days .

The rate Floyd charges is very reasonable at $75 per person per day and that is an all day hunt as well. You can contact Floyd Montclair thru the Standing Rock Indian Reservation web site.

Also you would want to visit with Jeff Kelly the Director of the Game and Fish on the Reservation, Jeff is very helpful in making your hunt a good time and will point you in the right direction to find birds .

I will post on Canada in a few days .

Regards Charles

Hello Folks :

Boy after looking at the date of my last posting , I sure wouldn't want to send me after a Doctor .

I have hashed this over in my mind for all this time and feel I should tell all of the story in detail from this point , this is where it started to get real interesting to say the least.

The second day was Very Eventful indeed, not only did we find lots of birds , but we went to this one area that the guides said would hold lots of grouse it was a farmers land that Floyd ask permision for us to hunt , with the landowner granting permission .

We drove in past the house and out back into the croplands , now I know what the name of this grass is but for the life of me I cannot think of what you call it right now , it is real thick and tall as your head .

Now I thought that this was a strange place to look for grouse but didnt say anything , Floyd had been right all along so I have no reason to question it .

We get out and start to hunt the tree lines with Terry, Doc and Doc's dog Hunter going down one set of rows , Ben , Peach and I going down another set of tree line .

Soon Peach is pointing lots of Pheasants but no Grouse , we near the end of a set of trees with no Grouse to be found , from up above us a tree line up and over comes shooting , figguring that Terry and Doc got in the Grouse , Ben and I got ready for we were ahead of them in the rows by 125 yards or so and over about 50 yards from the set of trees the shooting was coming from.

Soon Pheasants were passing by us in good numbers , but no Grouse , Oh well we thought they went another direction that we could not see in the escape route .

We finally end up closer to Terry and Doc with Terry coming over our way , I ask where the birds went ??

Terry came on over and filled us in on what had happened , it seems that Hunter went on point with Doc walking on in on the point and Terry coming up the side of the trees to block the exit of the birds from that direction .

When the birds got up Doc commenced to shoot , Terry said that the birds didnt look right so he didnt shoot , with Doc hollering Grouse but the birds didnt look right with Terry telling Doc that he thought they were Pheasants with Doc saying they were Grouse again.

With this being the first Birdhunting trip for Terry , he was unsure of the game so he didnt shoot as I had instructed him .

Well come to find out that Doc had Shot 2 altercations and Hunter his dog catching a young altercation and killing it in the process .

Terry told me Doc placed the 3 altercatons in a tree to keep away from the dog, Terry said it was a waste to do so and ask Ben and I about the episode that just transpired.

Terry didnt want to waste the meat and Ben and I concured but I informed Terry of what the legal issues were , we discussed this with me telling Terry that he could bone out the meat and I would cook it in the field if that would make him feel better about the episode.

I carry a couple of bags with me in my vest , so I give Terry one and he and Ben went down to debone the Altercations , I and Peach continue a wide swing around the tree lines finding nothing other than lots of Pheasants , coming upon Doc at the end of the line , I ask what happened ?? He said that with the angle of the sun he could not see them that well and just made a mistake , I told him we would just cook them in the field ( I had talked it over with Terry long before the trip that I wanted to cook some birds in the field and he and I together brought an oven for biscuts and gravy and all the cooking gear ) Doc didnt want for me to cook anything at all it was a big waste of time and energy to him .

Getting real tired so I will continue from where I left off .

Regards Charles

So we had the Altercations cleaned and not cooking them in the field , we headed back to the Motel , on the trip there Doc said it would be nice to have some of the birds cooked up by a Restaurant .

I said I would make it happen , when we got back to the Motel I told Doc and Terry to get to cleaning on the Grouse that we needed to take for the Restaurant to cook up for us and that I would be back in a few minutes and set off to get the arrangements done .

It was an easy thing to get done, the guy was real nice and said he had a large party going on and it would be 45 min before he could get to us , I said no problem and headed back to the guys to help clean the birds.

When I got back to the Van no one had started to clean birds yet , and Doc made a funny comment " Good thing I didn't bet . " when I told them that I got the arrangements for cooking the birds up.

I and Terry jumped in and started on cleaning the Grouse , then Doc came over and started to help " Ben went to the room and started cleaning guns , he and Doc didnt quite see eye to eye on the trip , Doc has a personality kinda like Sand Paper , and Ben he is too danged sharp for his own good sometime , he ran Hospitals for 25 or 27 years well I am not sure if I got my story straight I know it was 20+ years anyhow .

So Ben being a CEO and telling Doc's what to do for all those years and Doc having the personality that he has , WELL it didnt mesh real well so I attempted to keep them apart as much as possible .

While cleaning the Grouse , Doc said LETS SLIP IN THE ALTERCATIONS , NO ONE WILL KNOW THE DIFFERENCE . I said What are you talking about NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

Terry chimed in with Doc thinking he knew what he was talking about . I told them they were both NUTS THAT A 5 YEAR OLD CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE , ONE IS WHITE MEAT AND ONE IS DARK MEAT .

Doc continued to insist that no one could tell the difference and that I was wrong , well I seen that I was getting no where fast , so I decided that I would show them both something .

I would pay the fine with them when we got caught just to show them that , YES YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE , my land a 5 year old can tell the difference .

Terry was just mimicing Doc to kinda smooth things over , and I thought he of all people should know the difference for he grew up on a farm and hunted since he was a kid but he really didnt know the difference , he had just never bird hunted before .

So off I go to the Resaurant with the birds , 3 Altercations and 4 Grouse while Terry and Doc continue to clean the rest of the Grouse .

After dropping off the birds and dreading it all the way , ( I just knew I was going to be out a bunch of money just to prove a point , money that I didnt have ) .

I stopped off at the room with Ben coming out of the door , I told him what happened about the birds and how distressed I was about it , He said that I had to learn a bit about the arrogance of some Doctors and that we would just have to wait and see what happenes.

I told Ben that I was going to go and finish cleaning the birds , some folks are just not very good at some things and when I got back plenty was left to be done .

I put the birds in the Motel freezers and went to get cleaned up , with me dreading the evening ahead .

Really wore out so I will post more later .

Regards Charles

Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 42

The Marlin 90 is an amazing gun. I just purchased a 1951 vintage 90 in 16 gauge with 28 inch tightly choked barrels. The gun weighs 6 pounds 9 ounces. The barrels weigh 2 pounds 10 ounces. The stock dimensions are thoroughly modern at 1.5 inchex x 2.0 inches x 14.5 inches. The grain of the stock runs perfectly through the grip. The balance and feel of life in the gun is extraordinary. Those old boys at Marlin had it right. It took a long time for people to reach the level of sophistication needed to appreciate these guns. I have severa expensive Browning Superposed and Italian guns which are not the equal of the Marlin in this respect. The opening lever is 10 degrees left of center when the gun is closed. Does this mean the bolt needs to be rebuilt or that the lever spring is weak?

No sir Jake :

Your gun is just fine , the Marlin has a different lock up face than other guns , the top lever left of center just means she is locking up well.

I have explained how the lock up works in other post , you can look those up or I will explain it again if you cannot find it , but I am worn out right now and dont feel much like typing .

I am glad you like the gun , back when I was shooting for money , I would have given the price of a new Crown Grade for the couple Marlins I now possess , the finest shotguns I have ever picked up bar no amount of money .

By the way welcome aboard .

Regards Charles

Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

So Charles, what is the rest of the story?????

Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 42

Thank you Mr. Hammack for taking the time to answer my question.