16ga.com ~ View topic - decion approaches

Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 129 Location: hong kong

Good morning, I have been reading with great interest the versitile dog thread. I am close to selecting my first bird dog, and I appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this forum.

I would love to have your opinions to help with final selection of breed, and on the topic of train your puppy, or have your puppy trained, or purchase a started dog.

A little background I hunt mainly Grouse and Woodcock (my son is pushing me back to duck), we have a family dog now (wife's 12 lb Chauchaua) and my hunting dog will be a family pet for most of the year. We have a decent lot, and lots of public land near by.

From reading the posts I am leaning towards a Vizsla, GWP, and based on recent posts a Pudelpointer (PP might be too large a dog?).

So please provide your opinions on: Train, have trained, or started dog as well as your thoughts on my short list of breeds. If I have overlooked an obvious breed please suggest it.

I look forward to following this thread, and will update you on my progress.

Thanks, Alan.
16's in the stable:
1920 Iver Johnson Champion
1953 Sauer and Son SxS
2007 BPS 26" upland
1973 M37 (12 gauge)

Alan,

I have had GSP's for my last two dogs, and the pup coming this spring will be another. I prefer the short coat, as it is less likely to pick up burrs. A Vizsla would be a great choice, as well. In fact, there is a Vizsla breeder not far from here who I would recommend if you are willing to travel a bit (Also, not sure what would be involved taking an animal across the border).

I am also a big fan of training yourself. Sure, it takes time, but a half hour an evening after work really isn't a terribly huge commitment, although over a year it does add up. But, you have the pride of knowing that you helped shape the pup into YOUR hunting dog. And, you will quickly learn about the dog's personality -- is it soft, stubborn, rangy, or close-working. Particularly if the dog is going to be the family pet, too, you will have an opportunity to bond with the pup by keeping it at home, which you will not if you send the dog out for training. There are several good books out about how to train a versatile or pointing breed, but the one I recommend is Len Jenkins' Gun Dog Training: Do It Yourself and Do It Right.

I've had Pointers, Setters, Labs, GSP, GWP and now a Portuguese Pointer, Trained all of them with mixed success- But loved everyone of them and loved hunting with them. My success rate was in direct proportion to the time that I spent training the dog-- go figure.

Wouldn't trade any of my dogs for a finished dog that I bought. Love hunting over finished steady dogs, but all my dogs were pets first, and birddogs second. As far as family pet status I wouldn't shy from the size of the PudelPointer or any dog that you are going to train and spend time with. You can teach them good house manners. I've liked the Vizslas I've seen and Weimeraners are a great breed too.

Find a GREAT breeder, and pick the breed with the best characteristics for the way you live and hunt (for me the Portuguese Pointer -a versitile dog also). Train them to hunt the way you like, teach them indoor manners, and get to know the dog and your life will be much richer.

Just my bit.

Ash

Member Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 110

Hello Ajax

You are about to make a major decision. I've come to believe that very generally, all sporting breeds are good family dogs.

But if you want the BEST familiy dog and also the BEST bird dog, then yu must get an english setter. You do forgoe versatility, though. They're not known for love of water or swimming ability. But I'll still make my case.

There are two types of english setter Ryman and Llewellin (I've one of each). The Rymans are a bit larger and much more laid back - this dog is extremely loyal and his sole purpose is to be with and please its owner. The Llewellin is a little more active. Both are fantastically birdy. If you're the typical hunter, you'll hunt with this dog a dozen times per year and the other 353 days per year he/she is a member of the family. I've had several breeds of dogs and no other matches up on this. This is no guard dog - they are exceedingly calm and friendly and must be with people. If you're interested in breeders, let me know.

Whatever decision you make, check out the breeder. Get references, take your time, call people.

Do not get a dog with any field trials or show in the pedigree![/code]

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

The Rymans are a bit larger and much more laid back - this dog is extremely loyal and his sole purpose is to be with and please its owner.

I'll agree with statement 100% Both in the Field and at Home.

Guest

If you can afford a good trainer (esp. one that requires you to come out to observe your dog getting training), I would recommend that you do that for your first few dogs. Most good trainers have forgot more about dog training in one day that the average joe can learn in a lifetime. Figure that you will be hunting behind your dog for an average of 8-10 years and having to hunt behind a dog that you have screwed up just isn't worth it when trying to save a few dollars. I've seen too many dogs ruined by someone who did not understand the basics of dog training esp. when they get an electronic collar for the dog. A decent trainer may cost $300-$500 a month and after you leave/bring your dog for a three month period, you can have a dog that has a good start on birds. Once you've done that, then it's a matter of hunting your dog and shooting alot of birds over him/her.

Guest

Get around some Pudelpointers somewhere.......that should solve your decision on breed. The training issue depends entirely on your ability and confidence to train.

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2006 Posts: 7

I sure do like my Gordon Setter. They mature just a little slower than the others, which has given them a bad rap with a lot of people, but are wonderful family dogs and can handle the occasional duck hunt. Stay with a proven field breeder, and you will find a superior nose along with a pretty good companion. My $.02 worth.

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

ajax

The first thing I would do is get a copy of the Encyclopedia of North American Sporting Dogs. You might be able to find one at a local library. Has info on just about every breed you will find available(sorry Ash can't remember a Portuguese Pointer mentioned.)

Second, I would check all the different breeds on VersatileDogs.com( http://www.versatiledogs.com/ ) which has breed info, pictures and breeder listings.

Being from Canada you have an advantage over many of us in the US when it comes to finding breeders. Many of these breeds are better established in Canada and it will be easier to find a breeder when it comes to certain breeds. A couple I suggest you take a look at are the Large Munsterlander and the Small Munsterlander.

I have a Red(Irish) Setter and I consider him to be more or less a versatile dog. He's a better retriever in water than on land but his thin coat would prevent me from using him for late season waterfowl. Though I am sure he would disagree.

As far as training your own, a started dog, or a finished dog, it really depends on what's available, your own preference and cost.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

As an amatuer trainer of dogs. That is I don't train dogs for a living, just because I enjoy it. I would look for some books on training, decide which breed you want and as you have all winter, do it yourself. Nothing like training your own dog and seeing it perform. I will be training another mans dog this winter. I hope I can help as the dog is 7 months old. Training should begin at 7 or 8 weeks. If you follow Richard Wolters books and tapes you can not go wrong. I'm a lab man myself. Smartest dogs in the world. You can train them to hold steady on a bird. You don't need any special breeding. Nothing like seeing that lab holding on a pheasant or chukar or busting ice after a duck.Just my two cents worth. I've got a 12 year old and a 11 month old . When my friends schedule a hunt at a preserve they want to make sure I bring the 11 month old. Id better quit bragging, just love dogs, and I can train them. Been doing it for over 30 years.

I own a pudelpointer. It is no bigger than a shorthair or GWP . I am happy with my choice .... pudelpointers are friendly, smart, eager to please and easy to train .... they just get it, and quickly. As far as training goes, I'd recommend that you find a local NAVHDA chapter and join. They are a group of people with a wealth of experience training pointing dogs ... with their help you'll end up with a dog you will be very proud of!

Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 32 Location: WI

I agree with those who are saying, train your own dog.I trained my griffon myself with the help of a local NAVADA chapter and she turned out fine.She's a great hunter, house dog and my 21/2 year old granddaughters best friend.
Another good source for training help is www.dobbsdogs.com in the trianing library section.

My advice on breed is to buy a dog from proven tested and judged stock. That does not mean paperd dogs that means tested dogs. If you buy a Versitile breed make sure it is a NAVDHA dog look 3 generations deep for natural ability scores(NA) not just the mother and father. Alot of dog breeders are great trainers and can fool you into buying one of their pups because they have a well trained dog.Thats why I recomend looking 3 or 4 generations deep 1 champion dog does not make a well bred line so look under the surface. As far as training do it yourself. NAVHDA has a green book that will teach you step by step how to train your dog. Your aren't training him how to hunt you are training him how to listen. A well bred dog knows more about hunting and finding than you ever will. If you can build a bond with your dog and teach him to listen you will have a better hunting dog than 90% of the guys out there. The rest is just getting out and gaining expirience for both of you. Training a hunting dog takes 10 min a day in the yard and training never stops your walks are training your trip to the store is training every thing you do is renforcement. You can expose him to birds when he is young to build desire and again after he is trained to listen and whoa. After that if you run him on birds twice a month in the off season to keep him sharp your home free. No dog will ever be perfect but it beats the hell out of hunting with out a dog. You can seek some help from Professionals when its time to steady him up(wing,shot and fall) but they can be day trips. Do it yourself have fun and build a bond that can't be broken. Just take your time and don't push them when they are young give them time to mature and be consistent even temperd and kind.Good luck!

Guest

I'm going against most of the posters on this thread esp. when a few of them mentions labs. I've trained some good labs and the beauty of them is all you need initially is a nearby field and a few bumpers. After several hundred reps with the bumpers, you can move to live birds and water and you can have a decent started lab. With pointing dogs, you're more dependent upon getting a dog with a good pedigreed and hunting desire. By getting together with a good trainer, he/she has access to land and birds. Unless you can build a pigeon coupe for bird pointing, you can use the trainer's birds to get reps for your dog. Most pointing dogs don't need the continous reps that a lab would require for their retrieves but you need to spend 30 minutes a day several times a week over live birds to get your dog started. I see some guys think getting a bird in front of their pointer dogs only a few times withing a month is good but most young dogs need more before the lightbulb goes off for them.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Cut through the red tape and just get a Drahthaar. Nothing more versatile going. Shocked

I'll catch it now. Wink

As far as training, if you feel comfortable doing it and have the TIME, do it. If not, get the help of a proffesional. It won't be cheap but it will be done right.