16ga.com ~ View topic - crippled roosters and dogs don't always mix well

We've been discussing pheasant loads and pellets size on several different threads. It's a perennial discussion this time of year. One of the main reasons I like pellets bigger than #7.5 for most pheasant, is the lower cripple rate.

I've been lucky enough to hunt over some very good dogs. One of the best was my now gone old Heidi--a German Short Hair bitch with no quit. Heidi was one of the best retrieving Short Hairs around, but she was also a bit hard mouthed on pheasant, especially roosters. It was not always so.

I remember the incident that changed her quite well. I was hunting with a 28 ga. gun using a fast load of #7.5 shot for early season birds. The load was much recommended by several folks I knew who hunted the local stocked birds. Heidi was still a bit green, but was already steady on point and careful not to bump birds. So most shots were well inside 30 yards.

We were hunting in Miles Standish State Park in the stocked area. Heidi got on a big rooster and had him pinned against a small thicket of brambles. he went up just as I stepped forward and I hit him going almost straight up and away. I put the pattern right on his big butt as that was all he was presenting. The impact actually pushed him forward, and he came down with his head over his back and his wings folded. It looked like a perfect dead in the air kill.

Heidi went in to retreive him. He was stunned, but far from dead. She picked him up and he opened the side of her muzzle with his spurs. She yelped, dropped him, and he took off running like a shot with Heidi right on his butt. After about a 20 yard chase, the damage my shot did finally took its toll. He stopped just long enough for Heidi to jump him. This time (and forever afterwards) Heidi gave him a few good crunching bites and a good shake to make sure he was a goner. Unfortunately, those bites also did enough damage to ruin some of the table quality, but I could not blame her. The left side of her muzzle was bloodied and lacerated by those spurs. She never trusted a downed rooster after that and would administer her version of the coupe de grace every time she could.

Heidi learned in time that this habit did not apply to any other game bird. She'd rarely rough up a grouse, quail or woodcock. She also lightened up on the legal hens we took in time. Every rooster got the treatment from then on. I tried breaking her of it, but fially gave up.

I also stopped using 7.5 shot on pheasant soon after. I found that #6 shot was far more lethal and certain for close work. I also went to the 16 for pheasant and loaded #5 and #4 shot for later season and bad day work.

My best advise is to use enough pellet size for the conditions to ensure a clean kill. Its better for the birds and the dogs. Nobody wants a face full of rooster spurs. A stone dead rooster won't use his. A cripple might.

Guest

The best wild pheasant dog I've ever owned was a lab and shorthair mix. Since he had a smaller frame, he could cover ground better than a lab plus he had a good nose. When he was a young dog, I was hunting some very heavy tule cover and he was trailing a rooster until he finally caught up to it in heavy cover. I believe the bird tried to fly but the cover was too thick. I could hear a real tussle going on and Tyler even yelped but came out with a dead rooster along with some blood trailing on his nose. This was the first time which he would dispatch a wild pheasant for me where he would pin the cripples with his paws and crunch the bird along the backbone. I never thought once about correcting him since he never did that with ducks and geese but only crippled pheasants. I doubt many of us would even attempt to hod a crippled pheasant in our own mouth while the birds was trying to spur our eyes out. I have a younger French Brit and I didn't even hunt him on wild pheasants on his first year on recommendation from his trainer. I worked him on other birds just so he would not have a bad experience with a pheasant that would turn him off on birds....

Just my $.02.....

Good points on dog work, shot size and clean kills.

I too have used 7.5 on pheasants. Since I hunt only wild birds, I question 6 shot as too small - still use it, some. Prefer 5's any day of the week and backup with 4's.

I have to admit my dog is a mite too hard on birds. Unfortunately, all birds (Huns included!) get "clamped" pretty hard. I've often believed it was a kicking rooster that got him, though I didn't see it happen. What's funny is when he brings me one of my kids stuffed toys, he's so gentle you have to laugh Laughing

Realistically I'm not positive a rooster hit with 4's wouldn't (in some cases) have enough kick left in them to teach a dog to give 'em the death shake, and/or clamp down harder than always needed.

my $.02 worth

Guest

Stocked birds are one thing. Wild birds are another. We fill empty spots on our fall/winter schedule with game farm hunts. We find it better than not getting out at all, and the dogs seem to enjoy it quite a bit. I've put many a game farm bird into the freezer with B&P 7s or Federal Premium 7.5s from the 28, and w/o any negative effects on the dogs. For the second tube, I use the Win 1 oz. of 6. (I know, I know ... but from the back-bored barrel, they seem to do just fine.)

I will say I've given up on the 7.5 from the 12s, 16s and 20s. Just don't see a need. The 6s do work better. And, anyway, I think I'm setting aside my little RRL in 28 for game farm play in favor of my CG Magnus field model in 20. The CG is a nice gun, and I want to get her out some. As much as I'm loving my 16s, a little game farm work might be all she gets.

The past two weeks toting the FAIR 600 in 16, I've taken six state-released birds (4 roosters, 2 hens) on six of the Rem Express 1 1/8s in No. 6 and one of the Federal Premium 1 1/4 oz of No. 6. The only shot that required the second tube was a "longish" straight-away rooster. First shot was probably a tad shy of 35 yards. and the second was perhaps a touch over 40 but not quite 45. (For those inclined to question the yardage estimates, you can rag me for smokin' cigs, but I do pace off distances a lot while I'm having a coffin nail outside. I've developed a decent eye for distance.)

I'm sure my experience I'm sure is not as vast as many here, but it has been that 1 1/8 of 6s at 1300 fps inside 35 will firmly drop a farm-tucked, state-released or wild bird...if you're on 'em square.

For the second tube, I do keep looking for the Rem Express or Federal Premium 16s in No. 5, but have not been able to find any locally. Every shelf that has premium quality 16s seems to skip from 6 to 4. And there's no stock tag there showing they carry the 5s at all. Sorry, and I know it's a heresy on this board, but the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant in 5 has never done much for me.

Personally, I'll pass on the 4s from a 16. I generally don't shoot that long. I also think that if I need 4s over the Lews, it's (a) a weird day and (b) I may be trying to outshoot my ability. Plus, 4s are nixed on state-owned land in Illinois. In lead, No. 5 is the max.

JMO, YMMV.

I developed a 1 ounce load for the 28 based on #6 shot. It patterns quite well out of my guns. However, I use a modified (shortened) Pattern Control 28 ga wad with the shot cup intact. The cup seems to protect the shot very well. I'm also using Alliant 2400 powder. It has a very slow progressive burn rate that also seems to help things nicely.

This load will hit just over 1200 FPS and has proven very effective on close in roosters right out to 35 yards. It is not for the lightly built custom 28 though. One of these 28 mags will loosen your fillings out of a 5 pound gun. I think they would also beat the gun up too. So i reserve them for strong break opens based on the usual 20 ga frame. My Citori 28's handle them very well.

Since my average 16 ga guns weigh about the same as my standard 28 ga guns, I now just grab a 16 for pheasant. I have the option of bigger shot and more of it to fill the patterns well. However, if I'm hunting grouse with a 28 where I might run into the occasional swamp rooster, I will pack a few of these 1 ounce loads just in case. Better to have them and not need them etc.

Guest

Sounds great. If I get more space, I'll probably start rolling my own loads. As is, my kitchen is more gun room than anything and all but one of my closets are dominated by my gunning stuff. The upside: Inexpensive place and old, paid-for (but well-maintained) truck leaves more bucks for travel, shooting and hunting.

Darn job eats a lot of time, but I make sure to get my fun in. I try to shoot or hunt twice a week but often have to settle for once a week, but I'll be darned if I'll ever give up that one day. As I've told my bosses, "Hey, if shotgun shells were free, do you really think I'd be working full-time?" They apparently still appreciate my services enough that they don't begrudge my taking time off to get out at least once a week during pheasant season. Life ain't bad. Smile

I loaded my last box of these 28 ga. mags some 5 years ago. I'm down to about 9 of them now. Next summer, I will probably load another 25 rounds on a quiet evening. It will take me about 1.5 hours tops. That includes cutting the expansion section out of 25 Pattern control wads with a sharp exacto knife. I might already have enough prepared wads. In that case, it will take me about 45 minutes including setting up my pistol powder measure to throw the right charge of 2400.

I think the trade off of time spent to money saved plus results gained is an excellent one. My loads outperform the Winchester 1 ounce store boughts in both pattern quality and velocity. My loads will reliably take pheasant much better than the store boughts due mostly to the much better and more consistant patterns I get. The extra velocity is a minor plus.

The last time I saw a box of Winchester 28 ga. 1 ounce loads for sale, they were going for over 15.00 a box. That was about 5 years ago. I also patterned a box of these loads about 15 years ago when they first came out, after I got miserable results on pheasant with them.

I can honestly say the Winchester shot wrapper concept does not work near as well as they'd have us believe. I missed and crippled several pheasant with these loads that I knew I was dead onto. I tested the rest of that first box. I got about 33% blown patterns with these loads. They were horrible. I suspect the shot wrapper was not only not protecting the shot, but was actually interfering with the patterns.

I've never gotten one blown pattern from my own loads. The one piece shot cup makes all the difference. So I think I'm on very firm ground here. Its been over a decade since I've been using my own loads. I've never had one fail if I centered the bird decently enough and shot at a sane range for a 28 ga.

I've killed a bird out to past 40 yards with them on one occasion. Both the preserve guide and I were both stunned at how dead that bird fell. It was a Hail Mary shot on a bird dusted by my buddy, but it came down dead in the air just the same. I do not recommend such long range stunts with a 28 in most cases, but there it is all the same.

My experience urges me to suggest that most serious hunters and shooters learn to reload. We can often surpass what the ammo companies offer us. The knack and the knowledge we acquire helps keep us independent of folks like Remington. We need to be. Otherwise, we might have to eventually kiss our favorite 16 ga guns goodbye. Why give them the satisfaction of dictating reality to us. Reloading keeps them almost honest. that's about as close to it as we will probably ever get. Works for me.

Guest

Out of the top tube of my RRL in 28, those Wins have worked pretty well for me. The longest shot I can remember was after my nephew let loose 2 on a rooster. He put a few pellets in on his second shot, but the bird was still going strong and even getting altitude out at little more than 40. I'd flicked the selector to the top tube while watching what was going on, and dropped that bird stone dead on the backup shot. This was over a dog that didn't retrieve, so I walked up and picked it up myself. DRT (dead right there). The RRL is backbored; maybe it makes a difference. Don't know for sure. With a 28, I usually try to keep my shots inside 35 or so. If I didn't know that bird already had pellets it it, I'd have let it go and we'd have tried to walk it up again.

Re cost, a box of the most expensive ammo will last me a full season, and I usually have some left over to start the next one. I only put it in the top tube.

Re reloading, I'd love to, but there's no way I have the time or space right now. Maybe the day will come. I'm working about 55 per week right now, plus there's taking care of life's chores. I won't even own a dog right now, as it would be unfair to the dog.