16ga.com ~ View topic - You didn't tell me.......powder migration

Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Location: SE USA

Well I find out the hard way about powder migration. I post this to let anyone who may not know the story or do all the reading, what I should have done, about powder migration.

I am a simple reloader with a simple request. I want a 1&1/8 ounce reload using the most popular easy to find items. I will hunt mostly and shoot a few clays with the load. It needs to run about 1200 FPS.

I pick the Black Remington hull for my hull, the SP16 Remington for my wad, basic 209 primer and Longshot as my powder. No big deal all fairly popular stuff and the load needed was listed in several places.

Hodgdon list the load using 20.2 for 1185 FPS and 21.7 for 1240 FPS.

So I get my stuff and start.......................

A load or two doesn't sound right????????????

I cut one open and start reading, measuring and checking.

Wad is seated with light pressure but the hull is full of shot and crimps correctly. Shot and powder are weighed and double checked to insure we are doing exactly as book says.

My discovery says this:

Base of wad measures about .625 to .630

Internal diameter of hull at the point where wad sits is .658 to .660

There is a HUGE amount of slop in the wad to hull fit and it's very easy for powder to migrate by.

I also carefully cut open a hull and a fair, don't know how to guess a weight, of powder was in the wad compression area.

This problem didn't show up when you load a few and test them but let the loads ride around in a truck and then a hunting vest and then see what happens........ Mad

Back to the drawing board. Kinda like the coyote who wouldn't quit chasing the road runner.......

I do not have room to add a full 1/8th under the wad. That would put me up to high in the hull for the 1&1/8 of hard magnum 7.5 or 8 shot. I would not be able to crimp it down hard enough. I have overall room, the wad could move toward the case mouth but this decreases total case capacity and that is a problem, not for the 1 ounce crowd but for the 1&1/8 hunting loads.

I am considering my options........... Confused

Do I build a die cutter and cut thin .672 wafers????

And if I do I have to have a material thats thin but sturdy?????

Do I chunk the wads and buy different ones?
Do I buy a differen't hull? I have quite a few Remingtons now!
Do I try another powder?? Not hardly because you can throw a cat through the space between the hull and wad!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only thing I am sure of........I will not quit nor give up!!!!!!! Exclamation

Hope someone learns from my screw up's Wink

Guest

This is the first time I've heard that the Remington SP16 or R16 wad was not a tight fit in the Remington SP (Black or Green) hull. Usually powder migration is associated with using the SP16 or R16 wad in large capacity hulls such as the Federal or Fiocci.

One sure way to solve the problem is to switch to the Gualandi 1621 wad for 1 ounce loads or the Gualandi 1618 wad for 1 1/8th ounce loads. Both wads are available from Graf&Sons. The 16 Gauge reloaders Group has data for both wads using Remington SP hulls. A word of caution though if you switch to the Gualandi wad you may notice a slight bulge in the hull after loading.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Something doesn't sound right.
I just cut a RGL about 1" up from the brass. Both the R-16 and the SP-16 wad have a tight fit in the hull. I too, have never heard of powder migration problems with these wads and the RGL hull.

Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Location: SE USA

I cut three open and powder was past the wad on three.
I measured the hull and wad and noted the gap. I also cut a hull down to about 1/8 above the brass, same area wad seats, and again it has a LOT of room around wad.
I sliced one side partially open leaving the wad and shot intact and powder was already in the compression area on it too.

A search of this forum using the word "migration" reveals several others have noted similar problems. It also states other's ideas on ways to stop it from happening. Most use some form of over powder and below shot sealer.

My deal is most are in the 1 ounce group and have room to play with. I am a 1&1/8 man and I can't move the wad much at all or the shot won't fit.

The reason I posted was to warn others. I had not read it nor had I been warned but I see it with my eyes and I can tell it in the loads that get a lot of migration.

Let me clarify one thing. The hull I am using is a newly fired SP Black Remington Game Load, it had 1 ounce of #8's in it. It has white stamping on the outside. Steel plated brass head. It has a green internal wad base. These are the loads that had been running $4.50 to $6.00 per box, the cheaper game loads. The wads are Remington Blue SP16's, not a new batch but not historic either.

Like I say load and run to the range might not get a lot of migration but ride them for a day or two in a bucket while bouncing on dirt roads then carry them in a vest several 1/2 day hunts and that will be a lot of shaking.

Question

Guest

Wanna see powder migration? Try that wad or an old AA16 in a Federal hull! I have a ruffed grouse and a pheasant burned into my memory flying away unscathed after a couple of those bloopers! I can't believe they even published those combinations!

Your powder migration with the Rem hull and Rem wad is a little surprising, but Longshot is somewhat fine-grained powder. Like Twicebarrel said, try moving to the Gualand 1621. That's a good wad despite what that windbag (you know who) says.

Myself, I've come to shooting factory loads at game and my light reloads for clays.

With the recent proice increases in ammo I've been thinking about reloading some hunting loads again, but truthfully, I think I probably have near a lifetime supply of quality factory hunting loads, so I'll stay the course.

Guest

I suspect that the reason I am not having or at least not noticing any powder migration is that I primarily use Unique powder in my Remington hulls. Unique is a rather course powder that tends to clump up when it is compressed while seating the wad and would not migrate as easily as a fine grained or ball powder.

You might try using 16 Gauge Guys method of seating the wad on a 1" square of plastic cling wrap set into the case mouth to see if that stops your powder migration problem if you are determined to continue to use the SP16 wads.

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

After reading this post I went out to the reloading house and put an SP16 down into a once fired RGL. It fit nicely, however, I was able to slide it our with my finger. I believe the base is supposed to obfusacate, errrr I mean asbusacate, errr I mean get fatter, when the gun is fired, thereby sealing the wad in the case. Since this wad was designed to work in the Remington tapered hull, perhaps you have a bad lot or maybe it can be caused by the Longshot powder being too fine. I'd like to find out as I'm starting to experiment more with Longshot.

Matt

Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Location: SE USA

I'll post photos shortly.

Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Location: SE USA

Photo 1:
hull and wad

Photo 2:
Looks and feels like a good fit

Photo 3:
Gap showing. No pressure on screwdriver. It fits in real easy. I tried to photo the gap but it's hard to see.

Photo 4:
One I cut open to look for migrating powder, and found it too.

The wads make you think its all ok when you put one in a full length hull but when you cut one down toward the brass and look you see that it's a different story.

I think a larger grain powder would help, changing wads would too, but I want to stay with Longshot and the SP16 wads. I am going to go for the wafer/wad of some type. I like everthing but I MUST stop the powder migration.

I am not one to quit but I do NOT intend to have another blooper nor load anything I don't have 100% confidence in, easier to just buy new.

I would use a thin overshot card as a nitro card. Install the card over the powder before you seat the wad.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

I have a box of that same recipe that I reloaded. Longshot and 1 1/8oz shot. Worked up at the preserve christmas eve. No problems at all with any of them. Same wads I sold to you.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Dad's A-5,

I measured the components and got just about the same as you.
If I remember correctly, Longshot is a pretty fine powder.
Just because that load was in a manual, doesn't mean it's the best load.
I would switch to a little courser powder. I know you won't have that problem with Unique. I load mainly Cheddite hulls and the SG-16 wad.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

DAD A5
You're right. I cut a Remington hull down. I tried a half dozen different SP-16 wads. I found a difference in the wads as far as fitting. I quess I'll be selling the rest of my SP-16 wads. I've got recipes that use the BG16 wads in the remington hull. I tried a couple and got no swelling at the base of the hull.

Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Location: SE USA

Just keep this in mind.

In about 75% of common cases this problem will not even be noticed.

I cut the hull down to the exact level where the wad sits in a loaded case. It was only then I noticed a loose fit.

I doubt I would have ever even noticed it if it had not been for a blooper sounding round in the hunting fields. I have loaded a hundred and fired them at the range, testing the round and firing over a chronograph, no problems. But the hulls were loaded and laid still till I put them in my gun to fire. That gap between the hull and wad is not large but the powder seems to fall through a hole air can't pass through, a joke, and when the round is tossed around for a few days things can change.

I also tested a loaded round. I loaded a hull and then just tossed it all around for a few minutes, I was trying to simulate a few days in my vest or a bucket ride in my truck. I then very carefully cut open a shell right above the wad base, that is when I was shocked to see the powder migration.

I will try the over powder as Lefty Dude says.

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

I might suggest that in the process of seating the wad, that some of the powder will come up to the side of the wads, only from the air pressure that is exerted. You might also have static electricity that is causeing some of the powder to stick to the sides of the case. This could easily cause one to think there is powder migration.

That wad and case are very compatible. I would suggest you take the loading out and shoot them. I suspect you will not notice any difference in the results.

One word of caution. Loading wads that are undersized should be used with very bulky powder like 800x or Unique. These powders will bind together.

When I tried loading 20 CB wads in a 16 ga. Rem. case for the first time with Unique, I got good results. I quickly learned that fine grained powders would definately migrate and cause big problems.