16ga.com ~ View topic - Substituting Win 209's for Rem 209's, safe or not?

I tried searching for an answer a couple of different ways and came up empty so...is this a safe substitution or not?

The reason for the question is that lately I have been getting misfires on my reloads using the Remington primers. It's pretty annoying to just hear a click when you pull the trigger.

I don't mind getting laughed at when it happens but the trunk of my car can only hold two, maybe three bodies at a time and what with the price of gas these days taking these mamalukes to the harbor gets expensive. You know what I mean?

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Art: Are you sure it's the primer causing the misfires? My data shows that the Win 209 is hotter than the Rem. 209. I would always be careful when substituting components. I recently was sent some data which showed a 2,000 psi increase in pressure when substituting a cheddite primer for a winchester primer with everything else being the same. And these 2 primers are often said to be compatible.

Be careful out there!

Matt

I have done this with 12ga. but never with 16ga.
Be safe,
Ron

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 425 Location: Maine

The safe answer is to have the load tested with the different primer; internal ballistics cannot always be accurately predicted, although the Winchester 209 is indeed hotter, and will usually yield higher pressures. Fed. 209A's are about as hot as you can get IIRC. Pressure increases of up to 3000 psi have been documented with primer swaps, which may put many loads over SAAMI max. pressure, which a modern shotgun should be able to handle, but will likely cause premature wear/part failure with repeated use, and likely poor patterns.

Your problem with the Remington primers may actually be a seating depth issue (adjust the press) or a broken/worn firing pin.

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

If you are using Alliant powder send them an e-mail asking about the primer swap. I have done so twice and Ben has responded within a day each time. I suspect you will be told to drop the powder charge by a half grain when you sub the Win primer. Be sure to tell them the load you are using.

If you are using Hodgdon powder you will need to call them as I have never had them respond to a question I asked via e-mail but they will let you talk to someone if you call.

I started reloading pre-internet and all the literature told you to never sub primers. That even if you subbed a weaker primer for a hotter primer it might cause an overpressure load by some sort of ballistic voodoo. I now think that is probably all bunk but with it so easy to contact a manufacturer these days I always ask anyway.

Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: midwest

This might be a bit easier to answer if you would list the load...or at least what kind of powder you're using.

Target and field powders, obviously, burn at different rates.

With a double based powder you've got more 'wiggle room' with a swap. Personally...I feel too much data is listed with 'cooler' primers.

BUT...before that...check your primer seating depth (as someone above also noted). This sounds like the probable case.

While I don't think every load needs to be kicked off with a CCI 209M or a Fed 209A, too much data is simply put together with generic Win 209 primers. Fiocchi 209 primers (albeit a bit oversized compaired to US primers) are about the best comprimise between 'heat' and saftey...IMHO.

There are general rules for primer substitution...even though some will stick to the "never substitute" position...which is fine. Many of us who buy bargain primers by the case have the data for this. I do admit I would hestitate to list it here. However. I've used RIO, PMC Optima, Nobel Sport and various others in substitution over tens of thousands of rounds. I'm still here and my guns seem to be in one piece.

Again...please list your load or at least what powder your using.

In answer to a request regarding the load I am using here is the data, it's from the Lyman 5th Edition, page 184. I'm loading a Remington RGL hull with 7/8 oz. of shot, 18.0 grains of Green Dot, Remington 209P primer and a Remington R16 wad. They list the velocity at 1266 fps and the pressure at 9800 psi.

As far as the primer seating, I have checked a few cases with a straight edge and the primers all seem to be about the same, that is flush or just a hair below the surface of the brass. Although my eyeballs are not calibrated the reloads look about the same as factory primers. There is no way, as far as I know, to adjust the depth of the primer using a MEC Sizemaster.

It seems to be an intermittent problem and the day I experienced this problem the temp was in the low 70's. The firing pin puts a pretty good dent in the primer so I don't think it's a gun problem. Could be, but at this point I'm going with the primers.

I've heard of other people having this problem with Remington primers in the past but this is my first experience of this sort.

I have had a few misfires with rem 209 primers can't remember one with a win 209. I think your load is a little to hot to sub a win 209 primer. Drop back to 16.5 or 17 gr and send 3 to Tom for testing.

Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: midwest

This substitution is perfectly safe...perhaps even a bit 'cooler'.

Light load, low pressure, this wad will not jump pressures, and green dot is pretty elastic.

I would use the Fiocchi 616 primer on this load. You could get away with about any primer with this load...

Dunk

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: midwest

Thank you for your concern...I've already read it.

Plus a good deal more on this and about 8 other primer substitutes...and other independent data most don't seem to have...obviously you don't.

Do what you like. However, you should know what you're talking about first before 'low-browing' someone with your vast knowledge.

The idea that the Win 209 primer is so 'hot' is simply not so. Furthermore it's gone through two forumulation modifications in the last 5 years. Much other testing done with this 'do-it-all' primer shows it to be very mild, indeed. It's representation as being on the 'hot' side is to insure it's already wide use and to discourage what is being discussed here. A good deal of knowledge in the reloading community has debunked a lot of this, especially as it came to the use of ‘bargain’ primers. These, of course, gaining popularity as prices rose to the sky the last two years. In these circles much has been learned and tested outside of what Armbrust has written/tested. I shoot at a several clubs in my state…the Win 209 is being pushed aside more than a bit. Cost is paramount in the cause, to be sure. Nobel Sports, Fiocchi, Rio, Cheddite, etc..are all being used and used by the ten’s of thousands. Very safely when judiciously used with the correct information I might add.

Perhaps this is a good thing for the average loader to heed...which is why I stated my above post that I was hesitant to post some of the info/data I have. It seems I did best by not as the masses may have attacked. Again...if you're happy with what you have and know...lovely. Far be it from me to push any of my view. I'll not comment any further or offer any of my experiences.

Regards,
Dunk

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Dunk,

I wasn't 'low-browing' anyone.
If my statement bothered you, tough shit.

Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: midwest

Your statement "bothering" me...why, my good man...that's what is so wonderful about the internet. It is completely impersonal. I know not your name, personal information, favorite food, or would even recognize you passing on the street.

You would have to be far more than a ‘Dave M’ title line to ‘bother’ me. You can call me every name in the book, or could praise me, or could step off a curb this afternoon and get hit by a bus. In any of the three cases I remain indifferent.

My dear sir…there is no way you can ‘bother’ me.

Dunk,
It appears your 13th post is unlucky at best. Appreciate your thoughts and hope number 14 is a better one for you. Wink

Best,
Ron

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

This question of how "hot" the W209 is and if it can be safely substituted is one reason I always go to the powder manufacturers for such info instead of an internet forum. I have two e-mails from Alliant telling me it is OK to sub a primer and in one case telling me to frop the charge 1/2 grain if I sub a W209 for a Rem 209STS. There is no question surrounding such a practice if the info comes from the powder company itself.