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Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

Hi: I am curious about ideas others have come up with for over shot cards in roll crimping. I have used the BP .030 paper card, but find it to be a bit week. Another thought I have had would be to use polywad inserts with the stem cut off. I called polywad and they didnt see a problem with this. I would appreciate hearing about other alternatives you have had success with.

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

I just made a punch the size I needed and punch my overshot cards out of my empty dog food boxes. the mic at .025. I never had a problem. Old 16

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

If you are using the Polywad spreader insert as such, the stem is essential for the insert to work correctly. Without the stem, the insert will not stay put in front of the shot long enough to force the shot to stay in a short column as it leaves the bore. The shot has to impinge on the stem and keep the insert from flying off to the side until the shot column starts to spread out as it leaves the bore. This aspect is also why the insert works so well with tight chokes. The tighter the choke, the longer the insert stays at the head of the column, and the better it works. I got this info straight from Jay Menefee, the inventer. Even trimming the stem too short will negate the spreader effect.

I hope this clarifies the matter. Good luck in finding a solution to your problem. What little I do know was learned from an old hand who used to cast all his own slugs, so in this case, its hearsay. He told me that when roll crimping shot, the top of the shot column must be both flat and square before you put the top card in place. He used a flat dowel to tamp it into shape first, then used the same dowel to place a rather stiff card wad firmly down on the shot. He like clear plastic wads that let him see the shot. The drill used to spin the roll crimping tool must also be exactly vertical, so a drill press is necessary. Finally, the shell must be held firmly in a shell vise and be kept from being spun, disturbed, or shaken as the top wad is pressed down by the rolled edges of the shell mouth. Otherwise the top layer of shot will not stay flat, and the top wad will not be crimped down squarely. At least, this is what I was told. If I knew more about roll crimping, I'd try and be more helpful. I've been a fold crimper for almost all my loading needs for about as long as I've been loading. However, the old timer's method worked to perfection, so I'd have to say his advise was sound. anyway, you can take it for what it's worth. good luck.

Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

Mike: Everything I have read suggests that the transition from roll crimps to fold crimps was the result of seeking a faster method of mass producing shotgun shells and in fact there are a # of benifits to roll crimped shells (go to Balistic Products site for more Info}

Dave M. I have found when using a single .030 card (available from BP) and loading heavey loads that the card will bulge/bend some as the crimp closes. Probably not a big issue, but takes away from an other wise beautiful roll crimp.

Maybe I wasnt clear when I mentioned cutting the stem off the polywad insert it was to be used in a non spreader load (already have all my spreaders in 3 ga ready for next fall...it has been cold in MN} as it provides such a nice base to the roll crimp. I could use two .030 cards, but then the price is close to a wash when using the polywad. I do use a drill press and find that it turns out a very nice looking roll crimp and is very quick. There are no crimp adjust issues. One does need to break in your crimp roller, but this appears to occur in 1-2 boxes

The whole idea of roll crimps is part of the romance of the sxs and bird hunting in my opinion...I guess I get into my sport too much..It is my therapy I guess. I do the same thing with fly fishing and tying flies. Oh well, life isnt forever. Problem is it is always so long to the next season.

Charlie I love my bird dogs, I love my sxs's....now if I could just retire....

Guest

CV Circle Fly makes a .070 overshot card that they say works very well. I have been having great results using their .030 wad but I don't try to set the crimp too deeply which may be causing some or all of your problems. You can add a bit of case length (I assume that you are trimming your hulls anyway) to add a bit more length if want to use a deeper crimp. Give it a try it might work for you.

Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

Thanks twicebarrel. I will look them up.

Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 14

cvdawley Ballistic products have .080 inch thick clear plastic overshot wads that shatter on firing.I have not used them myself. Hope this helps Tom

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

It could be I was setting the roll crimp to deep. I noticed it most on 1oz loads in the 28ga. I took twice barrels suggestion and contacted circle fly wads and ordered the .070 overshot wad and I quickly loaded 10 rounds(roll crimping seems faster) and am impressed with the results. The plastic overshot wads from BP are only for 12ga. Would be kinda neat in the smaller gauges. So, no more cutting polywad inserts as I bought a 1000 in each of the three gauges I load(16,20,2 Cool

Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 50

You got a lot of good advise here so there is very little to add in that regard, howwever, I would like to put my two cents in on some of the side bar commments.

First off, I am real surprised that all the ammunition manufactures abandoned the roll crimp in the 1940's as I was still shooting them in the late '50's. I also started out, in the early 1960's, reloading roll crimp shells. As we speak I still have a box of 1000 over shot cards from the early 60's that I am using today.

As far as the reason that the companies changed to star crimps, you can roll it up to $$$$$$. Someone mentioned the ease of producing a star crimp over a roll crimp and the savings in cost of components. That tells it.

What the manufacture tells you is purely a product of what they think you will buy in the way of reasoning. They can justify anything that suits their purpose.

Back around the early 1960s I had a buddy I hunted with, we were 15 or 16 at the time, and he came up with what they called "Brush" loads. The shells had a thin card X inserted in the shot column and a different size shot in the 4 quadrents formed by the X. By the way, these were roll crimp shells. The X, asside from keeping the 4 different sizes of shot seperated in the shell, was supposed to work some magic on the shot column and arrange all that shot into somethng that would be good in heavy cover. The X reminds me of the spreader inserts mentioned earlier in this thread. I doubt it worked very good but was probably touted by the manufacture, to no end!

As for as spreader inserts, my personal view is that anyone who needs that to hit what they are shooting at probably would be better off seeking some advise on stance, mounting the gun, follow through, etc, etc. If I put the barrel in the right place for what I'm shooting at I hit the mark and its a solid hit. If I am off a bit I may get a wounded bird or a sloppy break on a clay bird. Having a spreader pattern which by its diffenition will be wider and thus thiner, in my mind, will produce the same things. There is no substitution for excellence.......learn to shoot well and you won't be chasing the "cure all" shells that someone is touting as the answer to your misses.

The only reason I do roll crimps is becasue I like them. All my 12ga and probably 2/3's of my 16ga are star crimps. I have not noticed any difference in their effectiveness.

Member Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Mn

Roll Crimp: I dont think anyone would suggest that spreader loads are a sugstitute for good shooting. That said, they are another "tool that the upland bird hunter can have in his bag. They really come into their own when hunting grouse early in the season in thick,heavey cover. Cool