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Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 70

i'm a clay shooter and would like to start hunting pheasant, dove, grouse, etc.. i have a 3 year old belgian sheep dog, "shooter". he's aggressive w/ other dogs until he becomes familiar w/ them. he's smarter than me which isn't saying much these days and has personality coming out of his ears. in short he's a keeper.

i'd like to get shooter someone to wrestle with and also use for bird hunting. like a breed that's friendly, able to hold it's own w/shooter, and obviously a good bird dog. probably should get a female so as to avoid a pissing contest w/shooter. my dogs are inside/ outside dogs, coming in at night. any reccommendations or comments appreciated. thanks in advance, rick

You want rough and tumble? Get a Chesapeak.

My only concern with getting a female in that situation is that due to their less aggressive nature, she may become somewhat submissive around shooter and prone to being not very aggressive in the field. I could be totally wrong on that, but that's my impression. Shooter will assert his dominance with any dog you get anyway, male or female. Having said all that, I would reccommend a pointer that is not too leggy for the kind of hunting you're doing. A brit or a smaller setter might work well.

A female Brittany. She'll hold her own. They are very loyal and need a playmate.

I hunt with a chocolate lab that is just as you discribe. They are loyal, bidable and playful with others. They are not as aggressive as a chesapeak and don't run large or quick as most pointers. They are what they are a trade off of the specialized bird dogs. I wish you well on your choice. No matter what you choose you will have a ball.
Best,
Ron

Member Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 602 Location: western pa

The large retrieving breeds would be good. What you need to do is find a litter that you can watch for a bit. Pick a pup that is calm but takes no sh-t from its litter mates. A good start makes the rest so much easier.

Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 265

A dog that is not exercised, and made submissive will become aggressive with other dogs. If you are the true alpha male it is very unlikely the dog will become aggressive with a dog you bring into your pack.

The idea that you want a dog to "hold his own" with your current dog is the wrong mindset in my opinion. Your dog shooter needs to accept the new dog as a member of YOUR pack not his. He has no choice in the manner. He will submit or be punished by you. This is how wolfs act, the beta males don't make decisions, they simply obey.

Letting any breed of bird dog work out their own relationships with other dogs is asking for a dog fight. A good bird dog (male or female) is a dog who is by nature a doer. The bird dog will take chances, test the boundary and will always be a dominate hunter. These are the personality traits that make the bird dog wonderful. In short the bird dog is not timid. I have noticed that after my bird dogs kill they become obsessed, almost a little wild, I can see it in their personality. This is why it is so important for you to be in charge.

When a human is truly the pack leader great things happen to the dog. The dog doesn't start fights, his training is smoother and easier, the dog feel no stress and he is happy to just be at your side waiting on you to make all the decisions his life.

Get control of shooter before getting any new dog, the breed doesn't manner. Control is gained when the dog is calm submissive. We calm the dog though exercise we make the dog submit with assertive behavior.

Good luck
Brian

Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Wisconsin

A Labrador retriever in any color will be the ticket. Just make sure he comes from parents with certified hips as dysplasia can be a problem with the breed. They are loyal, hard working, and intense when hunting but very mellow as a family dog. I've got one that is a natural pointer and most likely will be the best dog I'll ever own. He's not up to hunting anymore and I don't think I'll even try to replace him as I couldn't keep up to a young dog myself. RD

Lab. If you want a pointing dog, then a German Shorthair or Wirehaired. There are pointing labs as well.

You can probably find a good dog and save its life too. Anybody who says money can't buy happiness has never bought a dog from the pound.

Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 70

thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

a little more on shooter: i run the show. he knows it. last year his friend smarty, another belgian died. she was 6 months older than shooter and our first belgian. smarty was dominant in the house but as soon as they got out in the yard shooter was boss. i don't know if smarty just let shooter be boss so they could play or what. anyway smartys idea of play was to be chased, shooters to chase. eventually shooter would catch or smarty would allow him to catch her and he'd just maul her. get her on her back and fake bite at the throat. smarty was ok w/this and indeed asked for more.

smartys death a year ago coincided w/ our selling our home, moving to an apartment while building our new home. i walk him 3-4 hours/day and that wrings him out for a while. me too. our home is 99% complete w/ wild back yard and access to a safe 40 acres to run wild. perfect time to introduce the new boarder. i think it'll be a female brittany. order of march will be me, shooter, calamity[prospective brittanys name], and ho ho an 11 year old dachschund.

i'll keep you posted on how it works out.

thanks again, rick

Member Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Anchorage

I think I have some understanding of your situation. I have had at least one Belgian Tervuren in my home for for a time span of over 20 years. During that time I always had at least two dogs.

If your dogs recognize yu are in charge I would expect things to work out, but I think chances are increased by getting a female. There is just more likely to be an issuecbetween two males as the young one matures. I think the Britainy could certainly work out; they can be nice dogs. The suggestion for a Germain Shorthair might also make sense they might have a little more size and speed to run with the Belgian and in the lines I have seen there would ld be no potential issue of conflict.

Belgiun sheep dogs are both good sized and very active. They seem pushy because of their herding instincts. They need a lot of excercise to keep them happy. I'd look for a good sized pointing Lab with an excellent, non-aggressive temperment. Look for the pup that plays well with the other pups but is not the first one to come over and demand your attention. That is a dominant pup. You want a middle fiddle dog that will fit in anywhere.

Before you make up your mind, get the puppy familiar with your touch by petting him. Then flip the puppy over gently on its back and restriain it by holding it down gently by the chest. If he struggles and complains excessively, he's agressive. If he just lays there like a lump or cowers, he's too shy. You want the one that squirms a little, then settles down and accepts your restraint briefly. He should also get right up upon release and expect just a little reassurance from you that everything is okay with a tail wag and a bit of nuzzling your hand. That is the perfect tempered dog. He'll do very well and train easy without having to "break" him to your will.

The sheep dog should accept him right off. all male dogs will usually be very tolerant of a new pup. If not, your sheep dog has a real problem and could even prove dangerous to the pup. If so, he needs to be kept away from the pup for a while until you can oversee their play time together and so the pup can be introduced by stages like being in a puppy cage near the older dog until the adult gets used to the new smell and associates the pup with you.

If this does not work, you will have to get rid of one of them. The adult is the dominant animal in your pack and could kill the pup as another alpfa's offspring. You screwed up by accidentally letting him assume pack leadership. You can't undo that easily. He will fight you, and your relationship will always be strained with him after you make him subservient. He will always challange you and could even turn mean, surly and untrustworthy, a true turned out, lone wolf type. Dogs are either subservient from puppyhood on, or they will come to run things. It is just a natural part of being a dog. Lead or follow, its up to you to let them know who is boss in a gentle, but firm manner from the start. starting with a middle fiddle puppy is the best way to get your own pack started. You must be the alpha dog or it does not work.

Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 70

i reckon i'm somewhat of a lone wolf myself. this has its pluses and minuses for sure but i wouldn't change the way i am for anything. i don't guess i'll try to 'correct' my 'screwup' w/ shooter as i like the boy just as he is. for insight on 'lone dogs' read the poem 'lone dog' by irene rutherford mcleod. says it all for me. i'll get shooter and the new dog squared away.

I'm not implying that you did screw up. If your dog is obedient, and does not challenge you in an agressive manner any time you correct him, then you are the alpha dog in your pack. However, if you are not that accepting of other folks, neither will your dog be accepting. He gets his ques from you. He just might chew a new pup up and could even kill it before you have achance to square anything away if you really are a "lone wolf."

It is how dogs are. They are highly social pack animals. However, they are also hard wired to react to social input in the way a canine will. They are not a socially reasoning animal with a high intellect and the ability to plan for certain results through manipulating the social and physical environment. Only humans can do this. However, we must also be aware that this is the case, or we will train our dogs by accident with mixed results--some of them not good.

So you have to adapt your behavior and the training arena to get them to do what you want them to. It is the only way you will train a dog successfully. It's a learned skill that does not come naturally to us. Dog trainers are trained to train dogs, either by reading and study, through show and tell, or both. I learned by both. I had some good folks helping me to learn. I also learned how not to by watching the results of the actions of some real cruel idiots. So I'm just passing on the favor to you as best I can -- for your sake, and the sake of both your dogs, especially an innocent pup.