16ga.com ~ View topic - Hello from England-New member

Hi Folks

Just another Limey from across the pond wanting to be convinced about buying a 16 gauge and this certainly looks to be the place!!
By the way, what a great picture of the two old guys on your front screen sharing their bacee and generally taking a few minutes out from their day “chew the fat”.

Here in England the 16 appears to be even less popular than it is with you guys.
I’m currently trying to source a 16sxs in either Boxlock or Sidelock. I’m not really fussy about chambers as I shall only be using 15/16oz loads for walked up and driven Pheasant and Pigeon shooting so 2 ½” will be fine.
The key thing is weight as I’m getting on a bit and want to save weight over my present 12 gauge that weighs in at 6lb 4oz.
I’ve read about the 96 rule and so a gun of about 5lb 10-12oz will be fine for the 15/16oz load. Barrel length I guess will be about 27-28”
What does anybody on the forum think?

I read that the 16 used to be considered the classic upland gun in America which I guess means it’s light enough to carry all day but with a better payload than a 20 gauge.
“The same clout as a 12 gauge but as easy to carry as a 20 gauge” seems to be what I’m after.
What’s all this about 16’s having a better shot column and pattern?
Also given that the 16 gauge is measured by the fact that a lead ball 1/16 of a pound will exactly fit the bore, does this make 1 ounce the perfect load for the 16?
I know-so many questions from the new English guy!!

As well as answers to the above questions I’m just as happy to make a few new friends on here of a like mind and with a love of shooting.
As the Gerber knife advert says “in a world gone soft its good to know there are a few people left who hike, shoot hunt and fish in the great outdoors”. I may not have remembered that quite right but it seems to sum things up rather well.

Anyway hello to you all, and greetings and best wishes from Merry Old England. Wink

Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 88 Location: Nericia, Sweden

Did you browse the Holt auction catalogue for March this year? I think that there are some nice 16 bore boxlocks there, if you like British doubles.

Another source for good 16 bores is the german www.egun.de auction site. Earlier 16 bores were rather popular among the krauts, and in fact they made their finest guns in this kaliber. The Merkel over-and-under is one of the best examples of standard german guns, and one of few post war standard guns worth consideration.. For s-b-s in Germany, you should look for pre-war guns, as the post-war productions are as nice as waterpipes attached to a plank. Wink

Old Sh.

Buckstalker, nice to see another Limey on here

There was a thread about 'how much does your 16 weigh' a while ago which might be worth searching for, to give you an idea of what's available at what weight.

Or if you wish, your more than welcome to try my AYA #4 in 16ga, to compare weight and handling to your AYA 12ga. I'm only just over an hour's drive away in East Dorset.

There's another 16ga shooter in Winchester I think, roughly half way between you and I, and goes by the name of Gamekeeper on the forum.

Maybe we should all meet up?

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

Buchstalker
Nice to have you on board. I enjoy reading about how the laws and hunting is over across the pond.
Once you get your hands on a 16 you should consider getting a little sister to go along with it. 28 ga. would be about right. Welcome OLD 16

Buckstalker, someone mentioned an AYA shotgun. I think you will find that they are light and will probably be a good choice.
I think this site is great. It brings 16ers togeather so we can share information and our opinions. Just think, you made a post and found two 16ers that live near you. If you hadn't used this site, you would have never known. Good luck finding what you want. It sounds like you found some people near that can help you.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Welcome sir. Glad to see that the 'nanny government' (soon to be extant here in the colonies) hasn't claimed all of you folks Laughing

.

Ron

Hi Guys

I'm feeling welcome already.
You're right Scolari, it's a small world when you join a Yanki site (sorry any
Southern Gentlemen) and get replies from people back in blighty!!

Smokybuck, sounds a good idea to maybe meet up if Gamekeeper thinks so too. If he's from Winchester it will be doubly interesting as my 15 year old is going to Sparsholt College, Winchester next year to study Gamekeeping.

Welcome aboard from Colorado, Buckstalker. If you cannot be convinced to buy a 16 by the fellows on this BBS, then you are truly a tough sell. Laughing

The bad thing for you is that Diggory Hadoke brought a number of guns to Columbia for an auction last December.

I picked up an ~1864 Joseph Lang which was rebarreled in 16 bore by James Woodward in the late 1870's to early 1880's by James Woodward. It was reproved for nitro after 1989 at 65mm and 900 bar.

At about 925 GBP England's loss has been my gain.

Howdy and welcome buckstalker.

Small world as they say. My son is at Sparsholt, taking a Wildlife Management Degree. I'm sure your son will enjoy it there, he can even take his gun there as they have an indoor rifle range and clay shooting! Very Happy

Being as Winchester has more pubs than most it would be a good place to chew the fat and tell tall stories etc. Wink

Member Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 972 Location: Keller,TX

Welcome, brother buckstalker. As regards total weight of less than 6# 4oz, you will have a long look to find one with the balance and weight less than 6#. It is not impossible to find a used gun such as Pape or Reilley, that is lighter than 6#. Hammer guns are a good bet. Don't overlook the French guns. Darnes and Chapuis as well as some Manufrance Robust or Ideals can be found in 16 bore,and will come close to 6# or less.

Generally speaking, the 16 bore patterns most shot sizes from American #4 to 9 very evenly from 3/4 to 1 1/4 oz of shot in the payload. A trip to the pattern board will convince you of this. I would not like to shoot a payload of over 1 1/8 oz many times in a 6# gun! A 7/8 or 1 oz load in a 16 does it for most of my hunting or target work. Our brother 16'er, Charles Hammack's new wad will be available later this year, and will provide tremendous versitility in both payload and type of hulls it can be used in. Many of the members have their own pet loads for the 16. Russ Gray's reloading group is available for any help you might want in developing your own loads for specific work-invaluable information gathered from 16'ers over the years on various loads and pressure.

I hope this helps. We are a friendly lot, so don't be afraid to ask questions. There are many knowledgable folks on this board who will share their experience with you.

My advise is to try a sub-6 pound gun first to see if you like the way it handles. You might find it a bit too light for good wingshooting. 6.5 pounds is about as light as many folks feel comfortable with and most actually shoot better with a 7 pound gun.

As far as ballistics, most of what American shotgunners think is based on the smoke and mirrors many of our ammo and gun companies have been feeding us for over half a century. It is technically true the only way to improve shotgun ballistics with round shot is to use bigger pellets, more of them, and shoot the loads out of bigger bores. However, practicality and proper application of the tool is really what matters. Most times, the 3 inch 12 gauge maggie is overkill. The 3 inch 20 gauge load is a bad joke.

The 16 gauge once was queen of the uplands over here until companies like Winchester and Remington sold us on the idea that bigger and more is better. It was their plan to streamline their ammo lines and maximize profits. Winchester began strumping the 12 ga 3" magnum back in the 1930's as the next great thing. Once this happened, the 2-3/4 inch hull became the standard. All the nicely balanced and efficient shorties like the 2.0, 2.5, and 2.7 inch hulls disappeared. The sweet shooting, effective, and practical loads like 3/4 and 7/8 ounce 16 gauge loads disappeared with the shorter shells as well. 2-3/4 inch, one ounce 16 gauge loads became the norm. Since the 2-3/4 inch 20 could handle a one ounce load, some company execs decided the 16 was no longer needed and began the attempt to eliminate it from their gun lines. They introduced the 3" 20 gauge magnum. We Americans have been sold on "magnumitis" ever since.

Your people on the other hand, resisted this foolishness much longer. One ounce and lighter 12 gauge loads have been historically popular in Britain for over a century. However, I guess we Americans are now doing what Rome did so long ago. we are Americanizing everything with our influence. European companies are now going down the same path it seems.

Ironically enough, it might be that things are beginning to revert back though. the 12 gauge, 24 gram International load has certainly proven its worth in the last decade. Many folks in America are rediscovering the benifits of lighter loads in the other standard gauges as well. Some of the more savvy folks among us have been loading 3/4 and 7/8 ounce 16 ga or 5/8 ounce 20 ga loads for decades. I've been using 5/8 and 1/2 ounce 28 loads for years myself. I've found them very effective on quail, woodcock, snipe, and other smaller game bird and pests like starlings as well. I've even tried 3/8 ounce loads in the 2.5 inch .410 with excellent results.

Many folks including myself have been using smaller gauge card wads to fill the shot cups of bigger capacity wads for decades to achieve the same thing. I use 28 ga. nitro card wads in my R16 and SP16 wads to adapt them for loads down to 5/8 ounce as needed. It works quite well. I used to use 20 ga card wads in 12 gauge shot cups for the same reasons before companies began selling wads for the 24 gram load. I also have used .410 card wads in the 28 gauge shot cup and .40 cal wads in .410 plastic wad cups. These very short columned loads pattern wonderfully and hit effectively well beyond what some folks think possible. They all throw a very sweet core pattern that can really reach out surprizingly far.

Ammo companies probably will not offer shorter hulls again, but they really do not need to. Longer one piece wads perform the same function by filling up the unused capacity of the longer hull. We are beginning to see the appearance of such light load wads now. Charles Hammack, one of our own here has been instrumental in designing and ramroding a project to introduce a 16 ga wad designed for loading 16 gauge 3/4 and 7/8 ounce loads once more. The wad will be available from Down Range this summer.

Now, with the price of shot becoming so high, we will probably see this movement back to lighter loads start to really become popular again. If this happens, the 16 will probably regain a lot of ground it once held as an alternative to the 12.

So it seems the British shotgunners have been right all along. They discovered the "square load" well before smokeless powder, fixed ammo, and, plastic wads came about. Some of the old British percussion guns were were extremely effective if loaded with 3/4 to 1 ounce of shot--this without any choke to speak of. The cores of the patterns these old guns threw were murderous on birds out to 50 yards or more. These old guns proved that choke is not always needed if the shot column is not overly disturbed as it leaves the bore. Round, unflattened, and undisturbed shot that is flying straight down range will continue to do so as far as its momentum will allow it to.

Today, any shotgun barrel over 24 inches is not really needed to burn the propellants available. The old dictum from the 18th and 19th centuries regarding bore size/barrel length ratios is based on the burning and propellant characteristics of black powder. Smokeless powders have changed things in this matter. Still and all, 28 and 30 inch barrels do swing and track better and are easier to shoot consistantly well with for the average gunner. Some trap guns handle better with barrels to 36 inches. Break open bird guns seem to do nicely with 28 to 30 inch barrels on average regardless of gauge.

Good luck with your search for a nice light, easy to handle gun. as long as it shoots well for you, that is the most important thing. After all is said and done, it's still the indian and not the arrow that matters.

Hi all

Thanks to all who have replied thus far and particularly to "16gaugeguy"
for his marathon post. Lots of good advice contained within and on this site in general.
As a matter of interest I was offered a Dessard 16 gauge yesterday. It was an ejector sxs with 28" barrells and seemed to be just the gun until I asked the gun shop to weigh it for me. I couldent believe it when they confirmed 5lb 2ozs. This would be far too light for 15/16ozs and seened too light even for a 28 gauge. It did have 2 1/2" chambers so maybe it was designed for 5/8oz loads but even then.........
Anyway, I shall continue the search.
By the way, I noticed on one post recently that you are all suffering from high gasoline prices these days. You think you've got problems!!
Today my local staion was selling at the equivalent of $9.85 per gallon.
It makes you weep.
And with that sobering thought goodnight Wink

And Great Britain is an oil producing nation. This just goes to show that greed fed by power knows no national boundries and has no national interests other than gaining wealth at any cost. This is a perfect example of why economies geared for the highest economic classes are doomed to failure. When oil can be afforded only by the wealthy, the entire petrochemical producing system will collapse in on itself. Folks do not buy what they can't afford. They find other alternatives they can afford. But you can't convince the power and energy brokers of this simple truth. and so it goes.