16ga.com ~ View topic - Dumb question from new reloader: Lee Load-All?

Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Posts: 37 Location: north-central SD

Colleagues:

I am thinking about starting to reload for my 16 gauge Ithaca pumps (3 of 'em--all classics from the late 40s. No safe queens here!). I live in north-central SD and hunt pheasants, sharptail grouse, and ducks 2-3x per week from Sept. through the end of December. Much of this hunting is on public land, however, where we have to use non-toxic shot for all species. Right now I hunt upland with my 16s and Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads in lead #4s and #5s and either Bismuth #4s or steel #2s where I have to. Or Kent's tungsten matrix #5s if I can get them. For waterfowl, I've pretty much given up on my 16s and had to slum with some 12 gauge guns.

My problem is the price and limited availability of 16 ga. non-toxic loads. I'm paying upwards of $15 a box even for mediocre Federal steel #2s with less than an ounce (15/16ths) of shot. Bismuth is pushing $3 a shell ($27 for 10) and even the best tungsten-matrix loads (if I can find them) are loaded down for classic doubles, etc. Our pheasants--especially late season ones are really tough. So I'm thinking about starting to reload for the couple of boxes of 16 ga. non-toxic shot I go through every year. (And if I can get the price down, I'll start using them for waterfowl and burn up another ten or so boxes per year.)

My question is this--could I start reloading with a Lee Load-All in 16 gauge? I'm not looking for fast and don't mind weighing each shot and powder charge. I just want something that will load and crimp decent shells. I'd also like to work up some of the cold weather shells--last year we ended pheasant season at -10 degrees with wary old birds buried in thick cattails. Very amusing! I don't want to invest in a Mec Jr. until I know I want to keep reloading or can develop decent waterfowl loads for my 16s. Whatever I sue will have to be able to load all types of shot--steel, bismuth, lead, etc.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

I loaded thousands of 12 gage target loads on a Load All before upgrading to a MEC. So It can be done. I never tried to load up any hunting loads however.

BPI's Sixteen Gauge Manul, 5th edition has slightly over one page of Bismuth data. Does the new Bis Maxx outfit have Bismuth shot for sale? I counted 13 steel shot loads, all with a 7/8 ounce payload. I counted 16 Hevi Shot loads. For the most part these no tox loads require special wads, filler wads, buffers and wraps. And the BPI data is for the Cheddite, Fiocchi, and BP Multi Hull. No Remington or Federal hulls listed in the no tox data.

The current Alliant data booklet lists ZERO 16 gage no tox loads.

You will have to price the components for the load you want to use and calculate cost to see if reloading will be worthwhile for your situation.

Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 234 Location: KY

Talk yourself out of the Lee Load All II. Or let me talk you out of it. I have yet to get a single good reload out of the one I bought from Cabelas. I have tried nearly every hull and recipe you can use adn still haev not had any luck with the reloader. we have a mec in 12 that i can crank out rounds all day in so I know it is not my reloading skill.

If you still think that you want to get a Lee I will gladly sell you mine. I went ahead and bought the primer feed too. The whole setup can be yours for 25 bucks plus shipping to wherever you are at.

Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Posts: 37 Location: north-central SD

Thanks, guys. Points well taken. I will check out the Bis-Max folks. I started costing out some of the specialty components mentioned at BPI and they're adding up quickly. BPI also doesn't currently even list bismuth shot for sale. The biggest complaint about the Load-Alls seem to be how they crimp. Some folks seem to get them to work fine, others don't.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

You may find that www.ecotungsten.com can provide you with a non-toxic product that performs and loads like lead (and uses lead recipes and components). You're on your own but I have some experience with this product and have found it to be useful and infinitely superior to steel.

As to the Load All. It's been decades, but I used one for a while with no problems. However if I were begin again I'd start with MEC's 600jr. a journeyman loader that will last forever and produce excellent reloads.

By the way. There are NO stupid questions............now from time to time you may have to read some stupid answers........................... Laughing

Ron

Joined: 11 Jul 2004 Posts: 92 Location: Pa

I had a Lee Load All,an older one , given to me. I gave it back! The crimps sucked and there were no adjustments on it. Its worth the investment to get a Mec 600.

Joined: 12 Aug 2008 Posts: 13 Location: Duvall

Ditto what some here said - I started with a good ol Load-all until I could afford an MEC jr. Now I have two Jr's and both have universal charge bars.

The Lee Load-all is very simple and an easy and economical way to learn. It works just fine for awhile, but it's certainly very noticeable upgrade in ease and quality loads when you move up.

I'm glad I started with mine, but it's not necessary if you can afford the MEC JR right off the bat - just get that. The only reason to start with the Load-all is because you can't afford anything else. It works just fine.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2350 Location: West MI

Hello, Have you considerd roll crimping? If you load a bunch of different loads for all those different birds in relatively low volumes, you don't mind hand weighing and speed isn't an issue; you may be a candidate for rolling. + rolling alows for the largest payload potential which may curtail you from slumin around with that 12 and get your 16's back in the blinds. Wink

If your stuck on crimping my nod is toward the MEC. Hope this helps and good luck with the project, Mike

Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Posts: 37 Location: north-central SD

Thanks all for the advice. I will look into roll crimping, especially if I can do it with a drill press (?). If that works, a Lee Load-All might be sufficient. Another advantage of roll crimping is that I might be able to use clear over-shot cards. A couple of years ago, when the non-toxic law on public land first went into effect, I had to open a Bismuth round for a Federal warden to prove it wasn't lead. He thought I had reloaded a bismuth hull with lead because the shot didn't react to his new electronic shot tester. We resorted to prehistoric technology (the bismuth wouldn't leave a mark on paper) and got this straightened out pretty easily.

I also did the numbers for the cost (payload only) per round for various non-toxic 16 ga. loads. Steel, is the only "cheap" option at $0.13 per round. Evertyhing else is heading towards $1.50 to $2 a round just for shot.

COST COMPARISON FOR 16 GAUGE NON-TOXIC LOADS

Shot Price # Loads $ per Round
Steel #2s 5 lbs. / $12 91 (7/8ths oz.) $0.13
Tung.-Iron #4s 5 lbs. / $99 71 ( 1 1/8th oz.) $1.39
Hevishot #4s 7 lbs. / $160 99 (1 1/8th oz.) $1.62
Ecotungsten #4s 2.2 lbs. / $60 31 (1 1/8th oz.) $1.94

Nickel-plated 11 lbs. / $52 156 (1 1/8th oz.) $0.33
lead #4s

Steel, however, just isn't all that well suited to 16 gauge. According to Clayflingythingy, 7/8ths ounce loads are the only steel loads listed in BPI's 16 Gauge manual. That, however, isn't much of a load in #2s--only approx. 108 pellets versus the "gold standard" of 146 lead #4s:

PELLETS PER LOAD FOR 16 GAUGE NON-TOXIC LOADS

Shot Load Pellets per Round
Steel #2s 7/8ths oz. 108 (124 per oz.)
Tung.-Iron #4s 1 1/8th oz. 163 (145 per oz.)
Hevishot #4s 1 1/8th oz. 120 (107 per oz.)
Ecotungsten #4s 1 1/8th oz. 151 (135 per oz.)

Nickel-plated 1 1/8th oz. 146 (130 per oz.)
lead #4s

These numbers are only approximate and I'm absolutely no reloader.

Best,

Dave

P.S. Thanks for a most civil discussion. A number of other shooting-related boards could learn a lesson or three here.

Much has been said already about the Lee Load-all--so I won't repeat any of that, except to say--you WON'T be happy short or long term. The real problem is going to be the ability of your M37's to cycle reloads. My experience has been that they are fussy with anything but factory shells or exc. RESIZED reloads. The Lee does not resize. The MEC JR. won't cut it either, in all liklihood. The next level MEC single stage(700?) has the collett resizer and does a fine job or the PW 375. Unless you are going to reload target shells and shoot a bunch--BUY FACTORY hunting loads. It's hard to duplicate the non-tox stuff and simply not worth the aggravation!

NID-28, I am a bit confused. I read your post to say that the Load-ALLs
do not resize ? I have older model Load-ALLs in 12,20, and 16ga. ALL
have a resizing collet that works fine.

What am I missing ? I have loaded thousands of rounds on each over the last 30 years without any major problems. I have run tons of Load-ALL
reloads through my 1965 vintage Ithica model 37 ( now my son's ). When
making reloads for any pump or auto action shotgun, resizing is just another accepted ( and required ) step in the process. Break open guns are less fussy. Especially when the reloads are used in the same gun time after time.

Sorry to be the "Odd man out" in this discussion about Load-ALLs but I can
only relate my own experiences.

Rabbitdog

Yes--the Mec 600 Jrs and the Load All have a ring that will resize to some degree, but I'm referring to the collett style resizer that reforms the entire head of the shell. If you use new shells fired in the gun you are reloading for, you can probably get away with the single stage ring resizer. If you are using acquired empties, maybe not. I've always found M37's to be more sensitive to reloads, then say an 870 or M12. That's just my experience.

Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 311

SDshooter,

Don't forget you will need to amortize the cost of your reloader too. I estimate uasage over three years. You can, of course, choose to amortize your equipment over a different time frame.

In the single stage MEC line the Sizemaster is much superior to the 600 Jr. Not only does it have the collet sizer the primer feed alone is worth the extra cost IMO.

For low volume loading the Load All is the only real choice unless you can find a MEC used at a bargain price.

I now boycott E-bay due to their antigun policies but there used to be a thriving business in used MEC loaders. Only problem was the loaders would often (not always) be shown without charge bars and bottles. On inquiry the seller would invariably say something like they knew nothing about it as they were helping their aunt settle their late Uncle's estate. If you go the used route be patient and make sure all the goodies come with the loader. Nor did I understand those people who would bid 80%+ the cost of a new loader. If you are patient you could get them for 50% cost of a new one. Altho I have never loaded steel or other no tox I think the MEC's require a steel shot kit which adds to your outlay.

With Bis Maxx and Kent Tungsten polymer approaching $4 per shell I feel your pain.

Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 234 Location: KY

I also forgot to mention the poor factory support. I was told when I called asking LEE about my poor crimps on shells that I cut open and used the exact same factory components that it was not a problem with the reloader and that "that is just the way it is." I am saving for a mec.