16ga.com ~ View topic - Does anyone have data on the pressures for factory loads?

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

I asked Remington for the pressures of thier variuos sixteen loads and they responded that they did not publish that data. Does anyone know if there has been any independent pressure testing of Remington or other factory loads?

Thanks

There has been some testing of "unpublished" factory loads - I believe that there are a few on the low pressure group spreadsheet.

The problem is that you cannot rely on a test of a factory load to be indicative of the pressure of that cartridge, except for the specific lot that was tested. For cost or availability reasons factories are known to change primers, powders and possibly even wads. As long as the cartridge generates the specified velocity and the pressure does not exceed the SAAMI maximum (11,500 psi for the 16 gauge) there is no problem with them doing this.

For modern guns the pressure is irrelevent as long as it does not exceed the SAAMI max, which factory loads should not. For low pressure guns you must assume that factory loads are at the SAAMI max of 11,500 psi for the 16 gauge.

If you have a gun requiring low pressure loads then you must either reload your own or purchase RST, Polywad or other cartridge specifically loaded to lower pressure.

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Sixteen: I don't recall exactly but, overall, factory ammunition has a fairly high pressure in the 16ga. I think this is because they want the velocity high to work the actions of all those obsolete, useless, inneffecient automatics like the Sweet 16! Laughing

Tell us what you'r'e shooting and we should be able to help.

Matt

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Matt,

I recently acquired an AH Fox A grade with #4 (lightweight) barrels. The barrels should have been made pre-1929, because they are stamped Philadelphia. However, some serial number information on the Fox Collectors website indicates that it was made in 1932, which would mean that it was made in Utica. I have not yet gotten a response back to my request for a factory letter, so I am not exactly sure.

I had a gunsmith check to verify that it had 23/4 chambers. He said it was safe to shoot anything, but the information that I have been able to come up with since then suggests that I should not shoot high pressure loads with the light barrels. Before discovering that, I bought a bunch of Remington Game Loads and some Fiocchi Game and Target loads. I shot some of both and found that the Fiocchi's recoiled less. I have since become concerned about pressures and am afraid to shoot them, especially the Remington's. I have seen it suggested that the Fiocchi's have lower pressure. The Fox Collectors told me about this website and the Low Pressure Group. I am now a member of the Fox Collectors and the 16 Gauge Society. I sent a request yesterday to get information about signing up for the Low Pressure Group.

I have never reloaded, so I am still trying to figure out what to do to get started. It seems that many people believe that a Lee Load All is worthless, and just as many, or more, beleive that they do an adequate job. It appears though that there is no 3/4 oz capability with the Lee. I will consider any opinions on the pros and cons of that issue.

I also wanted to know about low pressure factory loads because I want to use the gun on a S.Dakota pheasant hunt in late October. The lodge will supply shells, Remington and Estate, but I was afraid of the pressure. If I can't verify that the shells are in a reasonable pressure range for my gun, I will have to ship some appropriate loads in advance to S.Dakota. However, I have also recently read about possible powder migration issues with reloads, so even if I get set up to reload, I am not sure that I want to ship my own shells to S.Dakota. Therefore, I need some good pressure information on factory loads.

I did not know that it was going to be so complicated to shoot this gun when I bought it . When I saw the gun at the Dulles Gun Show and picked it up, it was so light and it fit me, which is so rare for any off the rack dimensioned gun, old or new, that I had to have it. I was only aware at that time that sixteen gauge loads were hard to come by, that the chamber lengths of older guns were inconsistent and that I could not shoot steel. I have not shot it much, but I have shot well with it, so I want to bust a few clays and take it to the field.

This is probaly more information than you asked for, but these are my present issues.

Thanks

Ray

Guest

Ray your gunsmith is correct. Fox guns in good condition are very strong and can safely handle modern ammunition but the wood on an 80 year old gun can't handle the constant beating of heavy loads day after day.

RST make very good ammunition that will be perfect for your old Fox and quite capable of handling wild Pheasant at reasonable ranges.

http://www.rstshells.com/

As far as reloading goes there are a number of better loaders than the Lee on the market. Mec has a good reputation, Ponsness Warren is the Cadillac.

Sixteen,

Good choice! I don't think you'll have any problems feeding your Fox A grade. With 2 3/4in chambers and fluid steel barrels I would be comfortable shooting factory loads.

However, I think heavy loads will punish your shoulder and the gun so I would opt for 7/8oz or 1 oz loads for volume shooting. Occasional use of 1 1/8oz loads for wild pheasants shouldn't be a problem.

Fiocchi does occasionally publish data. In 2006 their 16 Game and Targert dove load with 1oz shot was listed as 1165fps and 6810psi.
Independent testing was fairly close to this.

Testing of Rem Game loads 1 oz to be about 1200fps and >10,000psi.
I haven't seen any testing of the Estate loads.

I have an earlier Philly Fox with short chambers. I reload 2 1/2in shells and keep velocities 1100-1200fps and pressures 6000-8000. When I take it for pheasants I also have some factory 1 1/8oz loads but probably shoot less than 10 of those in a three day SD hunt.

Plan to do it again at the end of October.

Jeff

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Guys,

Thanks for the information. You seem to agree that the only concern with shooting the Game Loads may be some stress on the gun that could loosen it up or damage the wood. My shoulder told me that the Fiocchi Loads felt lighter in the gun, but I was not sure how that translated to pressure. Apparently there is a significant difference between them and the Game Loads.

It also appears that it should not harm the gun to shoot a few 11/8 oz factory loads on a hunting trip. I beleive that the lodge will provide Rem. Express or Pheasant PL loads and Estate Heavy Game Loads. I should still get some 1 oz loads for practice during the trip. Do you know if there is any data on the 11/8 Fiocchi field load?

What type of pressures should I be looking at on the upper end for routine shooting in my gun?

Thanks

Ray

Re:Fiocchi pressures

Again, from the 2006 data

Fiocchi Golden Pheasant....3 3/4DrEq 1 1/8oz nickle plated shot
1310fps
10910psi

Fiocchi Hi Velocity Dove Load....3 1/4DrEq 1 1/8oz lead shot
1300 fps
10270 psi

Fiocchi Field Dove Load.........2 3/4DrEq 1 1/8oz lead shot
1185fps
8890 psi

Fiocchi Game and Target Dove Load.....2 1/2DrEq 1 oz lead shot
1165 fps
6810 psi

Fiocchi has the following disclaimer: "The ballistics data shown was determined by testing under controlled conditions. Actual performance may vary due to external factors-temperature, humidity, different lots of powder, priming mixture, type of barrel groove and length, etc."

Hope this is helpful

Jeff

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Sixteen: The factory Remington Game Loads 1 oz., run just under 11,000 psi with a velocity of around 1200 fps. I think your best bet would be RST 7/8 oz. loads running about 1125 fps at 7700 psi.

The 16 really shines when you can reload. Especially with the new wads coming out. You can taylor make a nice load for whatever you want to use that nice old fox for!

Matt

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Jeff/Matt,

Thanks for the information. I will be checking out your recommendations.

Ray

Guest

There's two very distinct "conversations" going on this thread. One is:

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Terry,

Thanks for the info.

Ray

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

I have to admit that I am still fuzzy on the pressure vs. recoil issue. Given that my gun can take modern pressures, is it pressure, recoil or a combination of both that can place undue stress on the gun and cause damage? I assume that higher pressure places unnecessary stress that can lead to damage. I also assume that more recoil, since I can feel it, must put negative stresses on the gun that can lead to damage. Should I be more concerned about recoil or pressure? I could obviuosly avoid heavier shot charges, higher velocity, and higher pressures, but I want to shoot loads from 3/4 to 11/8oz with a velocity between 1150 to 1200 fps. For example, is a low pressure load that throws a 11/8 oz load at 1200 fps about the same in terms of wearing the gun out as a high pressure load with the 11/8 oz charge and 1200 fps velocity? Conversely, is a high pressure load throwing 11/8 oz at 1150 fps better for the gun than the low pressure load with the 11/8 oz shot charge and 1200 fps velocity?

Oiy!

Thanks

Ray

Guest

Hello Ray,

It's fine to be concerned about pressure, but when you start comparing the differences between 50 fps, it's almost like in baseball when they get so concerned about pitch count. In all the years of watching baseball, I've never seen a pitcher's arm get completed separated due to making 4 extra pitches.

Given that your gun was properly maintained during its lifetime, you shouldn't have a problem with a few rounds in the 11k range. Now, if one of the owners would put so much oil into the action where the wood has the consistency of putty, you have a problem but that problem would exist on whether you shot low or high pressure rounds.

Basically, you can classify most guns into three categories:
1. American designed “mass produced” guns which includes Belgium and Japanese models;
2. Target guns; and
3. European versus American “game” double guns.

The American designed guns are like a ‘57 Chevy. They’re built for stout use and may or may not handle well depending upon their design and cost. Both the Browning Superposed (American and Belgium made) and the Citori/Winchester 101 are built to handle a ton of loads with the high end pressure range with very little maintenance. My gunsmith, (formerly of Purdey’s) told me that if every shooter shot one of those guns, probably every gunsmith would be out of business due to lack to work.

Target guns are also in the same category where they are built to process many rounds with few hang-ups. A competitive trap shooter probably shoots more rounds in a weekend than most hunters in a entire season. Target guns are designed to shoot a lot of rounds and break targets.

IMO, European game double guns are designed for a specific purpose and loads. Most of them have followed the “rule of 96” to help establish what is a comfortable range to shoot your gun. For example, if you’re going to shoot a 1 ounce load, then your gun should weight in the area of 96 ounces (six pounds). If you shoot a 1 1/8 ounce load, your gun should weigh in the area of 6.75 pounds. This is just a guideline that is based upon several factors like the number of rounds you will be shooting at any given time period; how well do you shoot that particular gun (some shooter are steadier with a heavier gun); and the conditions and type of game. You had mentioned that you’re going to SD in October. I know several people that go back there for the pheasant hunting and conditions can be extremely varied from lodge to lodge. There are lodges that specialize in “pre-released” bird (pen birds) all the way to wild birds behind slow moving labs. In the first instance, a 1 oz #6 should be more than adequate while the other situation may require heavier medicine. Also, will you be a blocker or a pusher? Each off those require skills/gun setups. I also wouldn’t want to make that long of a trip without having at least one reliable backup gun or when weather conditions get bad. Can we say 12 gauge?
Now, getting back to your own gun. If you have had a qualified gunsmith take a look at the gun, it appears that it can handle the above mentioned “modern loads”. Shooting hot loads may not be the best idea in you’re trying to get comfortable with gun. I would pick up or have a friend reload some 7/8 ounce @ moderate velocities (1150 fps) and shoot as many clay targets before your trip. Gene Hill always said that shooting a few cases of shells before a trip does wonders on the overall enjoyment of your experience. On your pheasant trip, if you feel the need to shoot a 1 1/8 ounce load for your hunts should not adversely affect your gun given the limited number of shots that you will be taking.

You didn't mention anything about patterning this gun. The first thing I do when I get a "new" gun is to take it to the patterning board to ensure point of aim and get a handle on which ammo it likes. I'm not a big fan of Fiocchi because they seem to be more style than substance. Nickel shot is baloney. Probably the most serious group of shooters are live pidgeon and the top trap shooters. They shoot high antimony shot along with a great wad. Take your Fox to the patterning board and please give us a report back...

Hope this help

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Terry,

The hunt will be a combination of wild and pre-release pheasants and wild sharptails, huns and prairies chickens. I will be taking a 12 gauge with me as a backup and in case the shots are too long for the 16. My gun has open chokes, so I am thinking that I should try to keep the shots inside 30-35 yards. The gunsmith told me it had .003 in each barrel. I do need to pattern it though. My limited experience with shooting it indicates that it throws a pretty dense pattern. I have taken 40+ yard shots with it on clay targets using the RGLs and it breaks them like I would expect from a mod. Close incoming skeet targets are completely dusted. I have never shot a 16 before, so I don't know if that is common with the gauge. I have read that a sixteen has a short shot string, so maybe that is the reason. I am getting set up to reload, but it will probaly be few weeks before I am ready.

What about a set of gaugemates for practice? I have used them in other gauges and they work well enough. If I were to shoot 7/8 oz promo loads at around 1200 fps with them would there be any real downside? Would there be any advantage in pressure and recoil reduction compared to a 16 gauge load of the same weight and velocity? Shouldn't shooting the smaller shell in the larger bore reduce pressure and/or recoil like an uber-overbore?

Thanks

Ray