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Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

If any of you have patterned 6's, 7/8 oz in a 16, I would appreciate hearing your results. I have done some, but will hold off on my results until I hear from those that have patterned them.

Lenard

Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 443

SR, the pellet count would be similar to one ounce of 5s, which means it will work, but you'll need quite a bit of choke to have a dense enough pattern. I personally prefer 7/8 ounce of 7s (about 265 pellets) which has enough density and pellet energy for IC to work out to 30-35 yards.

HTH, sv

A 7/8 ounce of hard #6 shot will tend to pattern a bit tight to begin with, if you are using a progressive burning powder like Green Dot or Unique, and keep the pressures to 9500 PSI max. Even though these subgauge loads tend to have a short shot string, there are less pellets to disturb each other, so the pattern spreads a bit slower. The load will work quite well out of an IC to a modified choke. Velocity can be upped as well without sacrificing pattern performance. The central 20" core of the pattern will be about as dense as a 1 ounce load out at 30 yards. The outer ring of the pattern will be thinner.

Too many folks put too much stock into the idea that the best hunting pattern is a wide one. Most solid dead in the air kills come from putting the pattern dead on the money. It is the central core of the pattern that produces these very lethal hits. That means accurate wing shooting.

In all actuality, the heavier loads of shot tend to aid close range shooting more. It is actually easier to hit more accurately out at 20 to 30 yards than at 15 to 20 yards for the average wingshot. Few people develop the speed and skill needed to center a bird in close. It takes years of practice just to be able to identify the target and focus one's eyes on it that fast, let alone bring the gun to bear accurately and get the shot off perfectly in such a brief moment. So out at 15 or 20 yards, the fringe patterns tend to do more of the work. The proof of this is the resulting damage to most closely hit birds. If most close in birds were well centered with 1 ounces of #6 shot, the result would be bird burger.

I've seen far to many "quick shots" have to resort to the second barrel to bring down the bird, when they would be better off maintaining their usual unhurried, coordinated smooth mount and swing through that lets them hit all the skeet and trap targets they are capable of. They get excited going for a live target and the adrenaline takes over. They shoot too fast and miss or just nick the bird.

The very skilled, truely quick wingshooter who is a cool seasoned hunter can put the smaller subgauge loads to good use, because he gets on target a lot quicker. In fact, he needs a thinner load, because he is more liable to ruin a bird by nailing it too closely with the denser center core.

So once again, it all comes down to the combination of the shooter and the load he's using. My best advice is to shoot a lot of skeet and trap top perfect your shooting, hunt enough so you don't get overexcited at the sight of a live bird, and be realistic about your own abilities with a shotgun. Then choose the load you will need to do the job cleanly.

In regard to pheasant and the larger prairie grouse species, I will go along with #7 shot out to 30 yards max. (I tend to try to stay inside 25 yards with #7 shot if possible.) Past 30 yards, penetration from #7 shot drops off enough so a bigger, going away bird will not always be shot through the vitals with enough pellets to kill cleanly. This is based on my actual experience on pheasant. #6 shot will add about 5 yards and is reliable to 35 yards. #5 shot will add another 5 yards. #4 shot another 5 yards.

I will always recommend folks to use a pellet size big enough to hit well through the vitals of the bird they are after from any angle, and to try to restrict the range they shoot at so the load can deliver a clean dependably lethal hit. If in doubt, go a bit bigger in shot size if possible. In this case, a bit more power than needed is better than not enough.

Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 44

Lenard,

I've never patterned 7/8 oz of anything in the 16. The 20, yes, but not the 16. From my experience, I would suspect that the 7/8oz load in the 16 would work better (slightly so) than the same load in the 20. Partly because I've never seen any given load not perform better in a larger bore, and partly because I always seem to have difficulty getting good patterns out of a 20.

That said, I do not necessarily agree with Steve Voss regarding the need for mor choke. In fact, if my personal experience with light loads is worth anything, I'd wager that you would actually need LESS choke with the lighter load. They just seem to hold together better and seem to print a little tighter.

Frank

If you mean a slower opening pattern by "better", then you are correct. Sub gauge shot loads that are shot out of a bore size one step bigger as in a 16 ga vs a 20 ga will usually have a denser center core if all else is equal. The outer or annular ring will be thinner, because the pattern is slower to open. So the inner part of the pattern shot out of the bigger bore will be lethal out further than the one shot out of the smaller bore. The smaller bore will probably be more useful in closer due to its quicker spread.

One other point here. The bigger bore has a better expansion ratio. The rear end of the shot column is bigger in diameter, so there is more surface area for the driving gases to push against. Less energy is wasted overcoming inertia. The shot column fired out of the bigger bore will gain velocity with a lower peak pressure being exerted to bring it to speed. This is why overboring a gauge will improve patterning and velocity.

Lower pressure improves the core density of a shot column. This is why Green Dot usuallyy deliver a tighter pattern than the faster burning Red Dot when equal amounts of shot are being fired. Green Dot delivers equal velocities with lower pressures than Red Dot, and its patterns are usually more effective at longer ranges. Green Dot has been a favorite powder of Handicap trap shooters for many years now. It is why I choose it over Red Dot for my 16 gauge subgauge loads. The patterns are more effective at longer ranges, which helps offset the lower pellet count to some degree.

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

The only 7/8oz loads I have used were for practice and was done so out of economy.

But after being on this forum for awhile, I am going to pattern 7/8oz loads for hunting. First will be the aforementioned #7 shot. The second will be #5 1/2 shot. (I did pattern #5 & #6 nice shot in a 67mm hull, 7/8oz and it was fine by my standards)

I am first going to try my favorite pheasant load which is 1 oz and back off to 7/8 oz. I am told this will lower pressure and increase velocity (which makes sense) Then I will try this same load which I sometimes load the spred R disc or X stream spreader insert. See how 1/8oz affects pattern.

Guest

As said in the previous post, most 16 gauge reloader shoot the 7/8 ounce load for clays because of reduced recoil for shooting a lot of rounds and "tightening" up our game to hit a 4" target with a 7/8 ounce makes hitting a larger target with a 1 ounce load that much easier. Going phesant hunting (unless you're shooting preserve birds) with only a load of 7/8 ounce of #6 is like going to a gun fight with a knife. A 16 gauge will shoot a 1-1 1/16 ounce best and since you're not going to shoot a lot of rounds for pheasant, it only makes since to not hamper your loads with shooting a "lesser" receipe. I know some serious trap shooter that shoot a 1 ounce 12 gauge for practice through their tightest choke. When the real competition start, I would bet almost all of them shoot the allowed 1 1/8 ounces. Remember in this specific situation, shooting a 7/8 ounce load gives you less pattern density than a one ounce with no other noticable advantage. The best visual is a 7/8 ounce load is a one ounce load with the missing 12% backend of the pattern. In all things being considered, I like to have that extra 12%...

Just my thoughts...

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

We should get an opportunity to witness the "lesser payload, higher velocity" theory on pheasant when Charles uses his 3/4 oz., 1400+/- fps load on his upcoming North Dakota pheasant hunt.

I'll be tuned in for sure!

Matt

I didnt know I was going to a gunfight with a knife , I though I was going with the best equipment that I can find , a Marlin 90 and 3/4 OZ Loads of 7.5's .

I have changed my loads a might , for further Merit evaluation .

2 boxes of 5/8 OZ # 9's @ 1575 FPS to see if Bill Hanus is right or not .

Balance of 3/4 OZ 7.5's @ 1520 FPS

Jumped everything 100+ FPS

Found something interesting though (65MM Hulls ) I loaded 20gr of Rex - 1 and loaded the Gulandie wad it shoots 1520 FPS loaded my wad same everything it shot 1565 FPS , better plastic that Downrange uses is my guess.

Off to the gunfight we go with our knifes drawn .

Regards Charles

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

I have to question "best" equipment when you are talking a Marlin 90 and 3/4 oz of shot, especially #9!?

But I haven't seen you shoot your 90, so I will keep my opinions to myself.
Just had to make a jab at calling your 90 "Best" equipment.

I am later today loading some 7/8 oz loads and see how they pattern, looks like rain, already windy than heck, so may have to wait to shoot, but will post my 2 cents sometime this week.

Who had the 1 1/16 load? I have only seen a couple and didn't like either one, but find the 1 1/16 interesting.

Terry Imai wrote:
I know some serious trap shooter that shoot a 1 ounce 12 gauge for practice through their tightest choke. When the real competition start, I would bet almost all of them shoot the allowed 1 1/8 ounces. Remember in this specific situation, shooting a 7/8 ounce load gives you less pattern density than a one ounce with no other noticable advantage. The best visual is a 7/8 ounce load is a one ounce load with the missing 12% backend of the pattern. In all things being considered, I like to have that extra 12%...

Actually Terry, quite a few registered trap singles rounds are now being shot with 1100FPS, 1 ounce or 1175 FPS, 7/8 (24gram) loads. folks are now learning what the international trap and skeet shooters have learned over the last decade

FYI, all international trap has been shot with a required 24gram (7/8 ounce) shot load for almost a decade. The idea originally was to lower shooter averages. However, averages actually shot upwards in no time at all and have been climbing ever since. the knowlledge that has emerged out of this is that the truely skilled shooter who is properly prepared and properly rested for an event can deliver the center core of the pattern on target every time until he or she starts feeling fatigued. The lessened accumulative effects of recoil has helped shooters overcome shooter fatigue very effectively, so they shoot better longer.

The center core of a pattern of 7/8 ounces of #7.5 or #8 shot will grind any clay target to dust everytime. The outer core or fringe of a pattern is not reliable enough to break targets with certainty and never has been. Adding more shot tends to sweeten the core, not the fringe, as some folks assume. So adding shot makes no useful contribution. it just tires out shooters faster due to the increased recoil thay are subjected to. Time, experience, and the everclimbing averages being shot with 24 gram loads have proven this point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I shot my first registered 100 straight with 1 ounce, 1100 fps loads. I've since shot a bunch of straights with the 7/8 ounce load, although I've not shot any registered targets in two years now.

However, competative trap shooting is probably not a good comparison to bird hunting unless you are shooting at a couple of hundred targets or more per day as might be done on a South American dove hunt.

Be that as it may, some of the factors at work here still apply in both cases.
Given the right choice of choke, a 7/8 ounce load of #6 at 1300FPS will hammer pheasant right out to 35 yards. The pellet count is at about 195 for the load. That is close enough to the recommended 200 pellets minimum for pheasant to ensure sufficient pattern density at the specific shot size's furthest useful range (in this case, about 35 yards if you use an IC choke. A pheasant is a too big a bird to fly through a well centered pattern of 7/8 ounce of #6 shot.

To stretch the point, a 1-1/8 ounce load of #5 shot has about the same number of pellets in it as a 7/8 ounce load of #6 shot. Out to 40 yards or a bit more, a pattern of #5 shot out of a modified choke has dumped many a big cock bird out at 40 yards.

So once again, it all comes down to shooting accurately enough to put at least a sufficient number of big enough pellets through the bird's vitals to insure a clean kill. Hitting the bird with the the pattern fringe will not do this reliably. Adding shot to the load only sweetens the core, not the fringe. All the extra pattern density in the world will not make up for poor shooting.

So if anyone needs to learn to wingshoot hunting style better so he or she can put the pattern on the money reeliably, then get thee to a skeet or trap range and practice enough low gun hunting type shooting until you can.

Guest

Given the tenor of the various "debates" over the airways, let me throw some more "facts" to the situation. IMHO, the top categories of shooters are probably the ones that shoot serious live pigeon and international trap/skeet. In either instances, given the difficulty of the game (when compared to American trap/skeet) or the amount of dollars waged bring the "cream of the crop". When they restricted the payload several years ago for the international trap/skeet, the conventional wisdom would be a significant drop in scores but like most athletic endeavors, the "cream always rises to the top". I doubt the top live pigeon shooters don't use the maximum allowable loads when the real money is on the line.

How that reflects to probably most of the posters on this BB is that while we love our sport and probably more an*l retentive enough to be concerned with the details, we're not in the top level of shooters as I just described. While I was a single digit golfer, I know that Tiger Woods could beat any day and twice on Sunday with five clubs in his bag while I had the allowed 14 clubs.

I don't have a problem when someone wants to experiment with various handloads when shooting clays since "no harm, no foul" but I believe as ethical hunters, we should use the proper tools to dispatch our game in the most humane manner as possible. I believe a wild pheasant the toughest bird to bring to hand and I'll use whatever I can possibly use to meet that situation. I'm conerned when I see someone throw an "idea" out on this board and with some inexperienced readers believing it to be the "gospel" and wounding more birds than if they used the proper equipment from the get go.

Remember, we shoot wild birds out West...

Guest

Now THAT makes sense. Good post Terry.