16ga.com ~ View topic

We have a wonderful Society here , being able to share info and communicate with each other in a manner not possible , untill Doug Oliver developed this site for us , I am honored to visit with each and everyone on the board , I am looking forward to meeting some of you folks at the shoot in North Dakota .

But I will not shoot something that hurts me , NO WAY !

I will be putting my loads on National TV so we shall see what they do , soon everyone there will know what they will do .

I will give anyone who wants to try them out a hand full of shells to shoot a bird for themselves .

Regards Charles

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Charles's loads go against all traditional wisdom. Having said that, I have shot his 13/16 oz. and 3/4 oz. loads out of my 1950 Sweet 16 long recoil action with no malfunctions! I would not thought that to be possible.

If I have reservations about the load it would be cleaning a pheasant centered with a load of #7 1/2 or #8 at 1500+fps!

Wish I could be there to see first hand but I guess we will find out!

Matt

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

Now tht many of you have speculated, I will tell you of my experiences patterning and shooting both pigeons and starlings. All patterns below shot at 30 yards.

With my Browning Gold, a .010 20 ga. will shoot 3/4 oz of 7.5 shot into 18" with about 93% in the 18". It does the same percentages with a Model 12 with .010 and a Nikko 20 with .008, except the Nikko opens to about 20".

The .008 choke in my Franz Sodia 16 ga., will shoot about a 21" effective pattern with about 85% in the 21" circle, using 7/8 oz of 6's.

So, if you are a skilled shot, those are ample loads to kill out to 35 or a little further using 7/8 oz of 6's. So, Frank you are absolutely correct as there is less choke needed when reducing shot loads, even in the 12 ga. The other thing I have recorded is that there is not a really heavy core, as the pellets seem to dispurse quite evenly in the effective areas.

Lenard

Guest

Just to keep in tune to tonight's discussion....unless I'm to be told differently, there is not natural pheasant hatch in Massachusetts. The only birds that are shot there were hatched in an incubator and fed like your typical KFC "special". To compare these "birds" against a wild pheasant is not a comparision. A wild bird will do whatever it can to get away from the hunter and his dog and if it does flush (outside of opening day) may be outside of a hunter's "comfort" level. Some of the "experts" on this board need to make a cross country trip and really hunt wild birds before making some of their statements as their gospel. I know of some lodges in South Dakota that add to their pheasant inventory by using pen birds.

If a person would hunt either in a pair or by themselves in public fields that have been previously covered by experienced hunters, and come out with birds will get a tip of my hat.

Terry, once again, you seem to be making assumptions based on guess work here. While it is certainly true that Mas F&W stocks pen raised birds out of New York in many of our state's wildlife management areas, there are also quite a few spots where birds have survived long enough to breed purely wild young birds for many years now. I've often hunted wild bred birds in certain areas in and around the HockaMock Swamp in Southeastern MA. Many of the aresa adjacent to the Federal Wildlife refuges in our state hold wild birds as well. I've also located wild birds along the Neponset and Charles Rivers well within sight of the Boston skyline. No birds have been stocked in the Neponset Basin area for over 30 years. However, if the land falls inside Federal jurisdiction, a person can legally hunt them there if the waterfowl season is also open and tha area in not within shot fall range of inhabited areas. I've never actively hunted these birds with a gun (I've never seen anyone try), but I've often let the dog play with them after a predawn striper fishing trip late in the fall. Many a very surprized huge old cock bird with some of the longest spurs I've ever seen has flushed from under my old Heidi dog's nose. She was a specialist at the game and hardly ever missed a chance to pin a bird once she figured it out. Many a time I've stepped lightly to well within easy shot range and could have made the kill with a 28 gauge quite handily.

If you think for one minute that these smart old survivors aren't every bit as wily and tough as any midwestern bird, then think again. I know. I've been out there shagging their asses for years. Plus, even the young of the year midwestern wild birds are said to be quite a bit easier to hunt than a bird with a season or two behind it. I've heard this from too many reliable sources to doubt it.

I can easily understand all this based on my own experiences with stocked birds and survivors. Given enough time, they too get smart, cagey, and tough. Those birds that survive the first week of our local pheasant hunting onslaught are far different to hunt than they were even a few weeks back. By that time, most of the less experienced and less commited bird hunters have long since gone back to beer and TV football. I've hunted quite a few spots around my locale late into the season without seeing but a very few folks out doing the same thing. The birds are very different, bigger, more heavily plummaged, and not nearly as apt to just sit and wait for the sport with the gun to approach close enough for an easy shot. By then most of the cock birds will have skedaddled to the nearest and heaviest thicket of thorn bushes or dense scrub oak they can find, where they can sit and thumb their beaks at both dog and man. In short, these birds soon learn where thay can sit safely and where they can't.

No matter where you hunt them, Chinese ringnecks are hard wired with great survival instincts not matter where they grew up. It takes only a brief period of time for those instincts to kick in, pen raised or not--this is true at least by my experiences.

Guest

I know that this discussion is moving off topic but the genesis of this thread was the viability of using a 7/8 ounce of #6 in your 16 gauge. While this receipe could be used for hunting larger upland birds, there were several discussion points of why a hunter would feel the need to use this load if there are possibly more viable loads available for wild birds ie. 1-1 1/8 ounce loads.

While some people indicate that "carryover" birds have the same genetic makeup as their wild cousins, I've been informed by many game biologists that what makes a pen bird survive in their own environment is a totally different makeup than a wild bird.

There is a noticable difference between a hatchery versus a wild fish in regards to their fighting ability and wariness especially in "catch and release" waters. IMO, the same is true for pheasants.

I TIVO a lot of hunting shows but the moment they end up at a fancy lodge and I see a couple of slow moving flushes, I hit my delete button. I rather watch Ben O. Williams wear out some boot leather and end up with two birds than watching these shows that focus on pen birds.

It's not the same....

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME

There's alot of good info in this thread, however off-topic.

I have no wild phez experience. So I will not attempt to contradict someone who tells me that they are radically tougher. Fine. Now let's move on. There are alot of pen-raised birds shot each year in the US. Think field trials, preserves, eastern state releases, even wild bird state releases. Some are shot whilst very naive. Others are smarter. There are also medium sized birds like chukar and ruffed.

Speaking to the general suitability of 7/8 oz #6 for all upland game, barring wild phez, I have empirically determined that the combination works well in 20s and 12s. I was particularly interested in Lenard's take b/c I haven't yet tried it in the 16. I have no trouble taking semi-wild preserve birds to 35-40 yds with this loading. I've even used it on woodcock and grouse and had as much success as with #7.5s. This may seem counterintuitive, but one pellet is all you need.

The nice thing about #6 on small birds is that you can take advantage of the higher retained pellet energy at distance. This allows you to use sub-1100 muzzle velocities.

Sam

Guest

Given the situations that you have described, a 7/8 ounce load of #6 should work fine for pen birds...

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

Terry, I have a very good friend that hunted chukars with a 7/8 oz load of hard 6's for years, in a 20 ga. using an IC choke. So, if they worked for him, they can work for me in a 16 ga. gun. As a side note, he would hunt all season and kill several hundred chukars.

I think what we are really talking about is the INDIAN, and not the arrow. I have personally killed several hundred pigeons with 7/8 oz of 6's and out to 40 yards with never more than .015 of choke. As a matter of fact, I have done the same thing with 7.5 shot

I just think that one has to be a darn good shot to be successful with the lighter shot charges on game birds. It can be done, but it is not for those who are not good shots.

Lenard

Guest

When you indicate your friend shooting over a few hundred chukars in a season, I'm assuming that you're discussing wild chukars. While I have significantly more experience with wild pheasants than wild chukar, anyone who can take that number of birds and with a low wound rate would definitely get my tip of my hat especially shooting a 7/8 ounce load. I do agree that it's the Indian and not the arrow but part of the interesting part of this BB is the wide variances of experience and skill. It just that I like to have that extra 12% of shot after I been climbing a mountain and having just one chance to make a clean kill. It may not make a difference but sometime that extra couple of pellets do make a difference.

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 91

Terry, he did shoot as well as any person I have ever watched shoot. Although I did not hunt with him, I have a number of friends who have been with him on multiple hunts. They all tell the same story. He was famous in the little group for killing his limit of 8 birds generally out of three covey rises. He was physically tough and could outwalk and climb any of those who went with him. The comical part of all of this, is that he shot a 31 Remington 20 ga. during that time. So of course it was the indian and not the arrow.

I think everyone should shoot whatever they are comfortable with and not be influenced by what others do. For if one is not comfortable and confident in their loads and gun, they won't do very well. And, to be that proficient, one has to shoot a great deal and learn how to shoot well.

Lenard

Hello Terry :

Make you a deal :

Hop on the great silver bird , land in Bismark ND on Friday the 17th we will arrange pick up .

I will show you wild Pheasants up the ying yang .

You shoot your 12% more or 100% more makes no difference to me , I will shoot my 3/4 OZ 7.5's @ 1520 we will hunt side by side ( few feet apart of course ) use my dogs , I will let you shoot first , then I will shoot only if you miss .

If you out do me I will buy you the BEST STEAK AND LOBSTER DINNER , if I out do you then you buy me a Hot Choc . and a Doughnut .

Come shoot with us at North Dakota .

Regards Charles

There again Terry, you are not allowing for the various strains of pen raised birds we have across this nation. I worked at the Sandwich, MA game farm on Cape Cod as a young man. John Prouty was the head biologist then. He taught me chapter and verse about raising pheasants for stocking purposes.

Back then, MA F&W put out a crossed breed called a dilute in most of the active hunting area from the early to the mid late part of the season. Dilutes were the product of a Chinese cock and a Golden hen. The males were all mules. However, they grew fast and were big. That is what the state thought the hunters wanted. No hens were raised or stocked. The hen chicks were almost white with no dark colors on them, so they were easy to cull. Most were euthanized at birth. At the end of the season, the state would stock pure Chinese birds raised to be wary and hardy in an effort to encourage wild birds taking hold in the areas where they were most apt to survive. Many of their decendants still do.

Now, the state buys and stocks a strain derived from the Manchurian Blue Back. The birds are a bit smaller, but are supposed to be as hardy as crab grass and come hard wired with excellent survival skills. They are a bit lightly built and have stong wings that soon develop well once the birds are on their own. These are the birds we hunt today.

The survivors of the pheasant war we have during the first weekend or two of the season seem to fit the profile. The typical Blue Back cock soon learns to run, not fly, and he will not hold well for the average dog. Within a week or two, he is typically as wily and as cagey as any bird you'll run into. He knows where the local food and water sources are, and he can be exasperating to hunt. He knows exactly where you are, where your dog is, and best way to get past both of you. When he does finally flush, it is explosive and as fast as any cock bird I've seen. Few will flare. They will do so to get over high cover, but prefer not to. Instead, these birds typically come up flat and fast almost like a ruffed grouse any place they can. They can be out of range sooner than most typical two times a year shooters can handle. If the typical bird is not killed very soon after he's been put into the area and while he is still bit addled and wing bound, he will learn to disappear like a puff of smoke, never to be seen again by any but the savviest dogs and hunters.

My best advice here Terry is to stop thinking in absolutes. Like people, different strains of pheasant will vary in their traits and abilities. However, the typical pheasant needs food, water, and shelter. Like any animal, he will develop habits that allow him to survive. Understanding those habits and turning them to your advantage is the key to taking your share. It always comes down to when, where, and how.

Guest