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To address Lenard's comments about the hunter who shoots several hundred wild chukar with his 7/8 ounce load. Many years ago when I had my best ever dog and was 35 pounds lighter, I would put up my truck and house that I could beat most comers to hunt wild pheasants. My load was not as important at that time because I could outwalk almost everyone and was fast enough to "close the gap" so when my dog got birdy and could hunt the heaviest cover. I basically never lost a cripple because this dog was so good at tracking the bird. Lenard's friend has some other physical attributes where he had some additional advantages that some of us regular guys don't have. I'm now older and heavier and my dogs are not as good of cripple finder as I would prefer but that's my current situation.

I'm an avid fly fisherman but like most hobbies, I was not very good when I first started out. In California, we have a few "catch and release" water where these fish have received their own PHD in not getting caught. It was extremely fustrating to learn how to catch these fish especially when you sometime had only a few opportunties to hook one in a single day. I got most of my experience and improvement by making many trips to Montana to catch their fish. Their wild fish were just as wary but because the Montana waters held 100+ times the number of fish when compared to California, it just meant I had that many more opportunities to step on my d**k to get my experience. I was also fortunate to have some good guides to work on my various skills.

Living in the most populous state (unfortunately), we do not have the luxury that some of the other people on this BB to pass off on birds on the normal hunting day. Due to everyone and their brothers chasing birds in this state, we have a totally different scenario than hunter that live in other less populous states. Even when we do not have the perfect shot to take, we may have to take it (not "hail Marys") and if we have to spend an inordinate amount of time looking for a cripple, I take the time. I have spent an 1-2 hours looking for a cripple. I rather have my loads stone the birds in the air.

As stated in other posts, a 1-1 1/8 ounce does work best in a 16 gauge. If someone for whatever reason wants to use a lesser load, that's their choice but I'm concerned when various statements that are posted on this BB where a novice hunter who doesn't have the experience to separate the wheat from the chaff starts attempting to emulate those topics just because they read it here without a good foundation for the basic principle behind that subject.

BTW, to change a line from Rain Man.....

stocked birds suck...

TB, the crossed breed was developed by mid-century especially for state F&W depts where hunting hens was not legal, and the folks who bought licences expected cock birds to be big and showy. The strain developed is or was probably nothing like any wild bird. It was especially bred to have the traits it did. These dilutes were a pushover to hunt. they are the very same birds I was knocking out of the air with a bow and flu-flu arrows as a young teenager. The dilute was not smart. It was almost like hunting chickens with a penchant to fly if scared into it. Some of them you'd have to boot in the ass to put them up.

Some time in the 1980's ( I was no longer living in MA) the F&W made hens legal to find a cheap way to stock more birds and fill out folks' quotas. The Department eventually learned that the Manchuruian Blue Back hens are among the hardiest and are good fliers. So that is where we are now.

Who knows where the MA F&W will lead us to next. Like everything else in our state, the department is just another political football to be kicked around. At least they have stumbled onto a very decent bird and viable bird with this one. Hunting them is a lot of fun even for a jaded old fart like me.

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

Cannot believe anyone is trying to compare natural born pheasants with pen-raised birds. If you think they are even close, then you have been hunting pen-raised birds for far too long. I don't care if they are Korean, Manchurian, golden, blue, black or whatever. It isn't even close to the same bird born naturally here in Nebraska.

Guest

I have to agree with Hootch on this. These Great Plains pheasants are mean, nasty, evil and generally despicable creatures. They would rather spur you than look at you and have turned some pretty good bird dogs into quivering masses of jello. They need every bit of lead available to knock them down and keep them planted. Oh and it doesn't take a season for these running, wild flushing, sneaky suckers to wise up, by the third weekend of the season they are either dead or as smart as a four year old bird.

Guest

I read this somewhere...

When does the opening day pheasant smarten up?.... first shot

When does the second weekend bird smarten up?...... when you slam your truck door

When does an end of the season bird know you're after him? .... when your alarm clock goes off

good hunting to all...

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

Terry,

That is a good one. I will have to pass that along.

Consider where your "wild Nebraskan pheasants originally came from. China is a long way from there. I doubt they flew in on their own.

Time and natural selection will weed out the dummies, the weak, and the trusting. Given enough time, the succeeding offsring from a solid purebred strain of ringneck pheasant will revert to the wild state we see in the mid and upper central plains. If anyone doubts that, they are simply contradicting themselves or have never hunted pheasants in other places than close to home.

I just got back from the Standing Rock Reservation hunt. The birds were very tough. We were hunting birds that had been pushed for at least two weeks prior to our arrival. The ones we had a chance at were typically getting up at 20 to 30 yards out with some exceptions. Most were getting up past 30 yards. The cocks were as silent as the hens. They all flew fast and flat except from out of taller cover or to get over the wind breaks if they got caught on the wrong side. Once I recognized the birds' behavior patterns, I began to hunt them as I used to back home. The tactics I used began to work. It took me a day to wise up myself about the birds, and another to wise up about the credibility of the info I'd been given.

These Dakota birds' behavior, flight patterns, and speed are exactly like those of the generations of survivors I've seen here in Mass. There is little to no difference except the location and the cover to some degree. In fact, much of the terrain I saw could have easily been found in Southeast MA. Even the flora is so similar it is striking. We have some very open, flat areas broken by hills with well grown over areas around Lakeland, Middleboro, and the Bridgewaters. These places could have been relocated to the Res, and hardly a soul would notice the difference. The biggest difference we have is the amount of water available and it distribution. Except for the sand hills of Cape Cod, my home turf has more fresh water, and its more spread around. This actually makes things tougher, because the birds are not so dependant on being around certain areas. They tend to be more spread out and less predictable except in winter.

I should have expected this. I was given some erroneous info about the time line of the season and the equipment needed to successfully down these birds. Most of us were hunting pretty much dogless or over some inexperienced dogs. We had some fairly inexperienced people too, and a few that should have known better. Because we hunting in groups made up of randomly selected folks, it was a bit of a Chinese Fire Drill for the first day or two. I did what I could to help sort it out, followed directions as given until I began to realize things were not as they seemed. I'm a senior now, and think it important to let the other folks learn. I've killed many birds in my time with or without dogs. I'm also sometimes a bit slow to remember my earlier experiences, and can be a bit too trusting for a bit too long.

I would have been better prepared if I'd brought my 16 gauge modified to full tubes and my 1-1/8 ounce #5 and 1/1-4 ounce #4 loads. A 12 gauge with 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 ounce loads would have been ideal. I would have been better off to have remembered the lessons learned from my own dogless years. In my own defense, I will add that I was given to believe these birds would be typical first week young of the year birds and that there would be plenty of dogs to help out. Not so--not by a long shot.

Did I have fun? You bet. I met up with some of the nicest, funniest, and fun to be with folks I've ever met anytime, anywhere. That made the whole experince a good one. Was it worth it? To me it was. Would I go again? You bet. I'd just be more selective about my equipment, and my tactics. We all have 20/20 hindsight. Live and learn. I hope to do just that until I'm on the wrong side of the sod.

PS, I'd appreciate it if you folks who found my company enjoyable to please PM me your email addresses. I'd like to keep in touch. You know who you are. Thanks for making it a great time, birds or no birds in the pouch.

Guest

just to be a smart*ss, does that mean the 7/8 ounce load didn't work as anticipated??

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

16gaugeguy.

Being a senior, I would have thought you would realize what you just found out last weekend. Being a senior myself( 70 years young tomorrow), I learned that lesson many years ago when I grew up hunting pheasants in Southern Minnesota. The first thing befor the season was to head to Ahlmanns in Morristown and buy some 1 1/4 oz number 4's Winchester shells. Those 7/8 oz loads work fine on chukars or the grouse up here in Northen Minnesota, but when it comes to those big cock pheasants, give me 1 1/8 in the bottom barrel and 1 1/4 in the top. You could have stopped by on your way out there and taken my 13 year old lab with.

Well SPR, if you've read my posts in this palaver, you would realize a few things yourself. First, I'm not prescient. I can't predict how things will go. Its good to know there are folks like you who can. Too bad you weren't there. You could have warned me about the real lay of the land as itr were.

If you read my posts as you claim to have, you'd know I qualified the 7/8 ounce load as suitable out to 30 yards max. That means to the bird at the time of impact. I do not care how big your Minnesota birds are reported to get. They are probably no bigger or tougher than any of the biggest native birds we saw on the res in the Dakotas, nor any of the free born natives we have here in MA. I've seen them both now. There is no real difference. So I know from real experince that if the pattern connects inside 30 yards, a 7/8 ounce load of hard #6 shot doing 1325 FPS will knock the snot out of any of them.

You must remember me having written that the load we choose has to fit the conditions we face and our ability to shoot. If the conditions I faced at Standing Rock had been as represented, the 7/8 ounce load of #6 shot would have done the job for the typical first shot on young, unpushed birds over dogs. However, the actual conditions were far from what was related to me.

A 16 is a great gauge for pheasant over dogs or if you are still hunting and know how to actually do it in a way to get closer to the birds and to get them to tip their hand. The dogs were not there in sufficient numbers, so most of us hunted without them. We had to walk these birds up in as long a skirmish line as we could put together with the folks we had. Some folks cooperated very well. Others seemed to want to hunt for themselves dispite the cooperative efforts of the rest. Some folks were first timers trying desperately to be of value. Most did quite well in spite of their inexperience. However, the birds heard us coming and ran well ahead. They knew exactly where we were and were getting up out at 30 yards or more. We had to recognize each as a cock or a hen before shooting which helped add more distance. We had one or two folks walking well out in front of the line, which added some more distance. Plus, most folks were not stopping periodically to get the birds to pop their heads up for a look or to spot the birds by the grass moving. So flushes generally came as a total surprise. That adds time to react well, which adds more distance. Needless to say, ranges were very long with few exceptions.

A 12 gauge would have been better under these conditions. A bigger shot size and more of it is the only way to increase useful shot ballistics once ranges get past 40 yards or so. The ranges we faced were two and three times longer than those we were told we'd be facing. I had many 45-50 yard opportunites I had to pass on. I connected with two birds out at about 40 yards I never had a chance to find, because the dogs were not available to help right then. I was using a 1 ounce load by then, a 35 yard load, so I pretty much stopped shooting and attempted to help the other folks by driving the birds as best we could. All I could do was walk and hope a bird or two would get up inside 15 yards. It happened only once when I was in the right place at the right time, and saw that the bird was a cock bird in time. I missed, pure and simple. I'd have dumped him with the second barrel of a 12 firing a 1-1/2 ounce of #4 shot. The 16 was streched past its usefulness in the matter.

Reality only bites you if you do not acknowledge it. I do not take things for granted, but I do listen to the folks who are supposed to know how it will go. I listened and left my Browning Superlight 12 at home as advised. That was unfortunate. I could have used it those three days to good effect. Again, live and learn. I also do try to walk in the other guy's shoes a bit before questioning him so close about his failings. It's the reasonable thing to do.

The short answer is no Terry. However, at least you are finally admiting you're a bit of a smart ass. That is progress in itself. Laughing

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

If you could see them popping heads up in the grass, must be the elusive pen raised bird of Mass. you were hunting. Strange to find them in the Dakotas.

Guest

Guest

Due to the proximity of your recent trip in the S.D., if I found this great and appropriate dialog from "Little Big Man"...

Jack Crabb: General, you go down there.
General Custer: You're advising me to go into the Coulee?
Jack Crabb: Yes sir.
General Custer: There are no Indians there, I suppose.
Jack Crabb: I didn't say that. There are thousands of Indians down there. And when they get done with you, there won't be nothing left but a greasy stain. This ain't the Washite River, General, and them ain't helpless women and children waiting for you. They're Cheyenne brave, and Sioux. You go down there, General, if you've got the nerve.
General Custer: Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!

I hunted and fished in many states and while I like to think that "ideal conditions" can be present but I always bring some heavier artillary just in case things go south.... I also have to give 16GaugeGuy some minor "props" for "manning up" on the recent trip to S.D. I know some guys when hit with the cold reality of the situation would not have fessed up on such a BB like this one. As I said in other posts, sometimes we need to be in the other guys' environment to understand his own hunting conditions before making opinions as fact. One rule might work for someone may not work in other local.

It never hurts to "be prepared" and it could happen to a better 16GaugeGuy...