16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Kansas City

I was given a case of Remington Express Long Range 16 ga shells. They are 1 1/8oz at 1295 fps, I assume thats a 3dre load.

My 16ga guns are a Parker at 6lbs11oz and a Mod 21 at 6lbs14oz. The load is a bit stiff for the Parker and I feel better about using them in the 21. My favored 16ga game load is a 1oz load and I reload at 7/8oz for clay shooting.

However, I would like to use up all the free ammo but question their effectiveness. Is this just another 3" 20ga type of load where all I get is shot stringing, flyers, and a whack in the shoulder? Or has somebody seen test patterning data that provides the real story?

I hunt the central to northern Great Plains, mostly for pheasant and prairie grouse, and prefer the 16 for early season, switching to a 12 later, or when I provide guiding and then I use a F&F Parker 12 for backup.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Bruce, I've heard these are a pretty good shell.
However, I've never shot them. My Damascus Parkers, and my shoulder won't take it. Oh by the way, welcome to the site.
I would pattern them in your model 21, and see how they look.
Then see how they perform on Pheasants, if you like the patterns.
You could always pick up an A-5 and burn the shells up in that. Wink

Stick around, you might like this site, good guys and some good info.
Regards, Dave Miles

Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Kansas City

Hello Dave, I've been a member for several years, just have not been a poster.

Maybe I'll pattern both the 1 oz and the 1 1/8 loads this weeekend and see if there is any difference.

I used the 16 Parker on all those prairie chickens last weekend, but was a little behind in the body for shot placement.

Need to get you out to the Dakotas some time for some high plains and wind mid season birds.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Need to get you out to the Dakotas some time for some high plains and wind mid season birds.

It would be a big change from the Grouse hunting around here. My arms are still all scratched up from last weekend. Rich and I are giving it another go around this weekend. The woodcok flights should be coming on strong this weekend. Pheasants are pretty much non-existent around west Michigan.

Welcome also Bruce Very Happy

That's 3 1/4 DrEq in a 16, and an excellent load, but a bit more recoil than I can handle in a less than 7# gun. I couldn't get my head back down on the stock for the second shot, but word from Charlie is that you only had to use your right barrel in the Sand Hills Wink

Bruce, you did not mention the shot size. #6 should be okay out to 35 yards for pheasant. Beyond that, I'd go to #5 shot for them. The #6 shot will do nicely for sharptails probably out to 45 yards or so, maybe a bit more. I do not remember ever seeing these rounds loaded with #5 shot. I've seen 7.5, 6, and 4 shot offered.

I've used the same loads you have (assuming these are the newer shells with plastic base wads and 209 size primers). Recoil is stout, but the Winchester 21 is not a real light gun. I'm guessing it weighs in at approx 7 pounds or a bit more. It also has a strong stock attachment set up, so your gun should easily handle these rounds. I'd also discount the velocity a might. Remington can be very optimistic about the velocities their ammo produces.

Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Kansas City

No, the Mod 21 is 28" and weighs 6/15 so its not bad and really a very nice, high condition gun. Its not as aesthetically pleasing as a Parker, but it is very solid and is a right feeling and great handling gun. The Mod 21 in 16 ga is a different feeling gun than one in 12 ga. I often lend it to new shooters because if they can't hit with that I don't know what they can hit with.
I've been hunting wild pheasant on the plains for years and have lived in NoDak, SoDak, Nebraska and now Kansas City. My early season and close load's are 6's and I switch to a 12ga and nickle 5's late season, unless we have fresh snow of course, and then even a 20ga works well. My 20's are light Parker C's and D's made for 3/4oz and I don't like to go over 7/8oz in them, and I think 7/8 is even kind of marginal for tough, late season northern plains birds.

Thanks Doc, Charlie was being kind. Its true I didn't have to use the rear trigger and got quite a few chickens, but I need some work. I was hiting them in the body and wasn't pulling ahead enough for a head and neck shot. Chickens usually give a crossing shot around you, unlike pheasant where you often have only a tail end shot and have to drive heavy shot up the rear.

Member Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Anchorage

Bruce,

I have used these shells and found them to be very effective. I would have to simply say they really worked well. As you said recoil may be a bit high, but they seem to stop whatever you are seeking to shoot.

Trigg

Some folks would turn their noses up at a 16 that wieghs in at 6 lbs, 15 ounces. I'm glad you are one who would not. It's a very smooth weight gun to swing and shoot. My favorite Citori 16 weighs just a bit less and so do my post 1960 model 37 pump guns as well. Every Parker Trojan 16 I ever hefted weighed about 7 pounds as well. I believe the Trojan is the most common and most popular Parker ever made (considering the sheer numbers of them sold.)

So if any of you out there have a 16 gauge Winchester model 21 which is just too heavy for you and you want to get rid of it-- I'll take it, and thanks. Wink

Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Kansas City

Trojan production figures
33,005 total
6,573 16ga Trojans

VH production figures
78,670 total
14,446 16ga

Most Parker 16 ga guns will weigh between 6 1/4 to 7lbs,depending on barrel lengths 26-30", assuming PG stock, no rubber pad and splinter forend. The shorter barrel length and 0 frame ones( 40% of production) will weigh 6 1/2 to 6 1/4lbs. Occasionally you hear of a special extremely light weight one or one that goes over 7lbs.
My Parker 16 is a higher grade than a V, has 28" barrels and weighs 6lbs12oz, which to me is an appropriate weight for 1oz 1200fps loads. I'm not a fan of shooting abnormally lightweight guns for the guage. If I want a 6lb or 6 1/4lb gun, I'll carry a 20ga. and shoot 7/8oz loads. Many 16ga guns have a reputation as hard kickers and that is because of low gun weight , which is not my personal preference.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Thanks for those numbers Bruce. Maybe you could correct me here if I'm not on the right track here. Wasn't the Trojan made on only one frame size per gauge? I was given to understand it was Parker's utilitarian grade gun and not available with options like the higher grades.

I tend to think this is true. Every Trojan 16 gauge I ever held weighed pretty much the same at about 7 lbs depending on the barrel length which is usually a 28 or a 30 inch length. Every 12 gauge Trojan I've held was heavier by about a 1/2 pound or so. There was little difference in the guns within each gauge group except for condition. I do not remember ever seeing a Trojan in a gauge smaller than 20 as well. I'm not sure if they were offered in gauges smaller than 20. I don't remember ever seeing one.

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

I would have to agree with Trigg on the effectiveness of the Remington Express factory green 1 1/8 oz. loads. I have used them for the last six seasons on South Dakota pheasants and sharptails in a 6.25 lb. Merkel 1620, a 28" full choke Win. Model 12 and a Browning A-5 Sweet 16 and never really felt the recoil, shooting over 50 roosters and a half-dozen sharptails with no problems.
The only way I can see you could improve on that shell is to buy it with #5 shot. I'm not sure that's possible, but the #6 and #4 versions are so effective, I personally wouldn't waste energy getting in a sweat to work up a special reload...I like to shoot my guns during hunting season and leave the reloading for those long winter evenings....

Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 6 Location: Kansas City

Mr 16gaugeguy, the reference work for Parkers is The Parker Story. From there, p. 246:

12ga 20,977 from 23" to 36"
16 ga 6,573 one 23", 3 30" and the rest 26 and 28.
20ga 5,453 all 26 and 28
28ga one 28" and one 30"

All 12s were 2 frame, 16s 1 frame, 20s O frame. The books show the two 28ga's but they have not surfaced and frame size is not known. Early 28's in other grades were O frame, most were 00 frame. And you occasionally see a Trojan with kind of a rib extension, a few are factory single trigger and you even see a few factory straight stock, despite what the Parker catalog states. They didn't have the choices higher grades did, but there are some Trojan oddities.

Bruce,

Agree with Wolfchief that factory Remington Express loads work fine. Just got back from SD and found 1 1/8oz of #5s (an older box I picked up at a gun show )were the ticket for roosters flushing farther out. Never notice recoil when I'm shooting at live birds. Used a standard A5 and a Nitro Special.

A free case of those loads is quite a gift!

Jeff