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Thanks Dan. Thick cover does eat patterns to pieces as noted above. It also obscures vision too. 50 yards of hardwood cover will thin out even a perfect pattern of triple odd real quick and will confuse our sight as well. Why risk wounding and losing the deer. It is just not sporting. If the woods are open enough for dependable 50 yard buckshot patterns, then slugs are still a better choice IMO. If the deer is moving too fast for a good sight picture, I whistle and hope it stops long enough for me to put the slug on the money. If it doesn't, trying a long wingshot on a bouncing deer is still not an acceptable risk for me. Better to wait for a sure thing. Blasting away only lets any other possibilities know exactly where I am and puts them on alert.

I set up a 12 gauge Citori a few years back with glow sights on the rib, a rifled tube on top, and a Pattern Master choke tube on the bottom. The Pattern Master tube gives superb results with Federal Premium buckshot loads right out to 50 yards. However, that is at the test range without any limbs or brush between gun and target.

I have killed several deer with Premium double odd Federal loads out to about 30 yards. However, beyond that distance in thicker cover, I normally can't see the deer well enough to put the pattern on the right spot, let alone thread it through all the clutter. So the best 50 yard patterns are useless anyway in typical conditions.

I save the top barrel for open shots out to 100 yards MAX with my own .69 caliber round ball sabot loads. They will group inside 4 inches at 100 yards. However, the longest shot I've made with them is still inside 70 yards. They hit like Thor's hammer at that range, so I know they got the stuff for longer ranges. I've never gottne the opportunity to prove it though.

However, again, seeing the deer well enough to kill it in typical New England woods cover is not that easy much past 75 yards, even in the more open areas. The typical low light available during the deers' most active periods when they typically show themselves where it is more open also comes into play here. A scope will help gather enough light for certain, but it will not let me see all the little twigs, stems, weeds etc hanging in the way.

Anyway, that is how it typically plays out for me in my neck of the woods. The fact of the matter is that in Southeast MA, we have a lot of deer, but getting to them is tough unless you have a solid game plan. The bowhunters typically get more deer now around here than shotgunners. They have the advantage of a longer and earlier season which also falls during the rut when the deer are more active and are more easily fooled. The deer are feeding more actively and are more predictable because of this. The longer shooting light at both ends of the day is also an advantage. The ranges are also restricted by conditions regardless, so a shotgun does not have the big range advantage it has in other locales. Oh I get my venison, but I have to crawl into the thick stuff very carefully to get it. Like I said--GAME PLAN. Knowledge is power.

Joined: 18 Nov 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Houston

Wow. I did't think this thread had legs. The info on the deer hunting is good. Got my first deer with a Rem 870 16' in mid 70's. But the question was for home defence and yes the links were good for locating 16 ga buckshot. I had a chance to pick up a sawed-off Rem 11-48 but the barrel measured 17.5" and I walked away. Can't see going to jail for stinking 1/2" of missing steel if the wrong DA got involved. Joe Horn sweated it out.

I prefer #4 bird shot for home defense. Buckshot can and will penetrate the typical interior walls of today's home. I've seen smaller projectiles go through stout plaster and lathe. I'd hate to see some home owner try to defend his family from a hell bent intruder only to kill or injure a loved one in the process.

Even an ounce of #4 bird shot will drop a very determined intruder stone cold dead in his tracks inside any home. It will penetrate nearly clear through the chest cavity of a big man and any coat or jacket he might have on as well, but also stay on the right side of the average interior wall. Even #6 bird shot will hollow out a large man's trunk like a jack-o-lantern at close range. Any hit in the shoulder, arm or leg will also put him down with authority. A hit in the face will be all she wrote for that dude as well.

Bird shot at close range is absolutely lethal. You can test this suggestion with a watermelon. Shoot one at 15 or 20 feet with a load of #4 shot and then check the results. Trust me here, there will not be anything left worth eating after you dust that melon with your shotgun. I think you will quickly realize you do not need buck shot for home defense.

Police are issued buckshot for use in riot guns, but are trained to use it to stop a felonous crowd without necessarily killing anyone if possible. They are trained to shoot at the pavement in out in front of the target area. The pellets will ricochet off the pavement and hit the targets in the legs and groin. They also flatten out and will really pack a wallop, but not a fatal one necessarily. One well deployed load of #4 buck can take a fair number of folks out of action in a hurry. It will also stop a fleeing prisoner without killing him as well if used in the same fashion. However, these two situations are far different than home invasion. (Most Hollywood prison movies have at least one manditory death scene involving a road gang guard shotgunning down a running prisoner. This is simply more Hollywood bullshit. Guards are trained to stop but not necessarily kill a fleeing prisoner.)

One more point. Many state laws require the defender to use minimal force with the tools at hand to defend one's home. It's a lot easier to convince an investigation team that you were using a bird gun and shot, because it's what you had access to. Using a riot gun with buckshot suggests forethought with intent to kill and not just stop. Taking a human life is a very serious matter that will be thoroughly scrutinized in today's society. Better to look like you were simply trying to stop the intruder. Bird shot is not viewed in the same way a load of buckshot will be. It's your home to defend and your family. I'm simply trying to help you do it in a smart way to avoid collateral damage and legal embroilments after the fact. I hope this advice is viewed by anyone looking to defend their homes and families.

Member Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 451 Location: La-Tx

Even in Texas, how things play out can depend on whose jurisdiction the incident happens in. I also lived in the South for many years. Neither the South in general or Texas are as stringent or conservative regarding home defense as many Northeastern locales. However, even in Texas, the taking of a human life is considered a very serious matter. There will be an inquiry.

If a homeowner accidently kills one of his own family while trying to defend them, that is a tragedy that might have been prevented with a bit of forethought and care. It is a tragedy that can and does rip families and lives apart regardless of where it happens. Acting with care and acting responsibly might help make the difference. This also is true regardless of where folks live--even in Texas.

Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 56 Location: tulsa

I have loaded #1 buckshot using a rem wad and rem 16 ga case only using nine pellets instead of 12.. This was to give my wife a training round to simulate the much more powerful and harder kicking 9 pellet OO load for 12 ga.. The plastic wad helped give good patterns that were easy to score.
Loading data I had said to cut off the pedals of the wad to load 12 pellets. Since I was using a smaller amount of pellets I kept the pedals on and I think this helped give tighter patters.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

As one that grew up here in NJ and HAD to use buckshot, I am amazed at some of the thoughts on BS in this thread.

Now, I've never used a 16ga with 1 or O BS. All my BS shooting has been done with a 12ga and tight chokes for the most part. I say most part because some rounds shot better from Mod chokes rather than Full or Ex Full.

As for 30yds being max. NO WAY.
Not hot air but I've killed numerous deer with BS at 50yds. I will NOT tell you that it is a reliable 70-100 yds load.
But 3" 12ga OOB in my old A5 with Full choke and my current 1187 with a Full tube in will drop deer out to 50yds without issue.
On a recent drive I had 2 deer come walking out of the thick swamp brambles. They stopped and looked back while facing broad side to me. Distance was just over 50yds as per laser rangefinder, no guessing. Dropped both deer with 2 shots.
On the next drive in the PM that day, dropped to more moving deer at 45yds. Ranged them after they were down as I didn't have time to do it before, they were moving. Very Happy

First one on that drive dropped where I shot it, second ran about 4o+ yds. Not bad, I've had slug hit deer go that far.

I don't use BS often anymore as slugs have been legal for some time now here in NJ. But it does serve a good purpose at times especially when driving in thick brush.

I have no way of knowing what the conditions were at the time you took those deer at 50 yards. Perhaps you had an open shooting lane. If so, and if you knew before hand your equipment would put enough pattern on the the deers' chests, then you were acting legally and responsibly.

All I can say from my experience is that 50 yard shots with buckshot here where I hunt is iffy at best and pretty irresponsible to try IMO. I did state that the Pattern Master choke tube coupled with Federal Premium loads produce some very lethal looking patterns at 50 yards for me. I can't reliably use that potential. The typical foliage and clutter won't let buckshot work well past 30 yards in my area.

It was much the same in and around Grayson County, VA. Of course, rifles were and still are legal there, so most deer hunters would not use a shotgun. However, once the season is under way, the deer become spooky and retire to the laurel hells for cover until well after dark. Some savvy hunters understand and go there (or used to) with a shotgun and buckshot (or a large caliber handgun). However, 50 yard shots in a laurel hell are very few and very iffy at best. Seeing the deer past 20 yards or so well enough to shoot them is hard in all the clutter. Getting a pattern of buckshot through that clutter is also about impossible.

I don't know how long ago these two kills you made took place either. Ammo, attitudes, and thinking have changed in the last few decades. What was acceptable in 1960 is no longer concidered so by many folks. I'm sure you'd rather use a good slug gun and sabot rounds today if the condityions warrent slugs. They are simply better for longer shots in moer open cover.

With the advent and general acceptance of rifled shotgun barrels and sabot rounds and the considerable increase in accuracy they give, many authorities have come to regard buckshot as archaic at best. Some states and/or regions have outlawed the use of buckshot, because too many animals are shot and not recovered with it.

I don't know of any state that mandates buckshot over slugs today. I'm not saying that there aren't any. I just do not know of any wildlife management team whose thinking is so reactionary or archaic. I do know that some folks in Mass Wildlife Management has been considering outlawing buckshot for deer for the above reasons. It hasn't happened yet, but it probably will.

Too bad. Buck shot has its uses. In some conditions, it is the best choice. However, like so many other things, it is the irresponsible use of buckshot that has given it a bad reputation. Use it wisely and it will work. Not doing so will get you nothing but frustration or worse. that is my main point here.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Conditions were fairly open shots with minimal brush.
All 4 took place 3 weeks ago. Laughing

I do have a very lethal T/C Prohunter in 20ga slug that I use MOST of the time.
But on the deer drives when the groups of up to 25 and 30 are running fairly quickly and scattering at times, I find it better to put a bunch of OOB out there.
It would even be better if I had a 3.5" or even a 3.5" 10ga. More pellets. But I can't justify the cost of a good 10ga. for the 8-10 drives we put on in a season. Especially since the 1187 does quite well.
All of these deer were shot with Fed Premium which patterns quite well out of this gun as does Winchester Super X 3".

As you state, BS when used responsibly is great. It delivers a lot of hurt to a large area with 1 shot.
And as I said, I wouldn't recommend it for 70yd shots. But with todays chokes and the ammo construction, 50yds, IF you pattern and know your gun is quite reliable. Wink

My $.02, which by the way is backed by a couple of freezers full of meat. Laughing

and if the shots are taken in fairly open terrain... as well you might add. I would suggest you try one of the Pattern Master choke tubes with the 3" Federal premium loads. The Federal loads have a shot cup which is manditory for success with the PM choke tube. However, the patterns will be consistantly excellent and bvetter than I've gotten with any other choke or load. Good luck.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

I'll pick one up before next season and give it a try. As I said, I do use it a few times a year for the drives.

I'm really tempted to pick up a 10ga to get the job done. Had one, a BPS, years ago and got rid of it. Regrets now but hey I was younger and dumb. Laughing

Gonna be tossing some Fed OOB around next Sat on another cull hunt. I'll let ya know how I do. Wink

Save me some butterfly chops please. Laughing

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

16gg,

Solved the problem of 40vs60 yds with buckshot. I bought a BPS 10ga 3.5" which will be my new driving gun. Very Happy

Gonna pattern it on Fri and hopefully put a "few" down on Sat during our cull hunt. Wink

If you lived closer, don't know why anyone would want to live close to NJ, but if you did I'd drop a whole deer off to you Sat. Very Happy

I wondered about your interest in #1 buck. What you might be doing with it?
I tried to think about buckshot in a 16 gauge and all I could ever remember seeing was #1 buck. I think thats all they ever made. I used to use it for high flying geese but can't say I really had much luck with it. I remember sneeking up on a bunch of ducks and emptying the gun on them. When the smoke cleared, there was only one cripple on the water. I quit shooting it about then.
I did ,however, do a little searching on the internet and found that is still all that is being made for the 16 ga. I did find a site that loads #4, #B, #T and 00 buck. They also have a "dangeroud game" slug and some 1 1/4 oz offerings in #2's and #4's. As you might expect, they are a little pricey. Have a look for yourself. www.buckammo.com

PS,
Thats supposed to be "dangerous game" slug. I think thats the one that Fiocchi makes but does not load them in the 16 ga. I noticed that Ballistic Products has them for reloading but not already loaded. Maybe this outfit uses that slug for their shells.