16ga.com ~ View topic

Guest

Hi All! I am a 16 gauge nut, I ALWAYS hunt pheasants, quail, woodcock and grouse with a Remington 1100 16 gauge gun both here in CT and out in the midwest. I NEVER hunt with factory ammo ONLY reloads.

I would like to add my 2 cents to the ongoing subject of Chamber Pressures and Velocites in regards to gun wear and reloading.

I was employed by Precision Reloading Inc. when that company was located in Stafford Springs CT. With Piezo pressure equipment and working to SAAMI Standards, I developed most of the 16 Gauge lead reloading data, listed in the reloading manual, Blanks to Supersonics. I have spent a lot of time with pressure guns, chronographs and patterning boards.

Chamber pressure is often misunderstood. Many people believe that 8,000 PSI is automatically better than the 11,500 PSI SAAMI Maximum in the 16 gauge.

First, any firearm that is of modern manufacture and built to SAAMI Standards was proofed at approximately 18,000 PSI. Higher chamber pressures (up to the 11,500 PSI SAAMI maximum) will NOT wear out any well made firearm, including the light game guns.

Second, it has been my observation that lower chamber pressures are not automatically your friend. Lower Chamber pressures (those under 8,000 PSI) have the tendency to produce both inconsistent velocities and pressure and when you throw in the colder weather that many of us hunt in, things can get worse. The moderate and slower burning powders that are used when reloading for the 16 Gauge need a little heat and pressure to keep things burning nicely. I don't know about you, but I want my reloads to perform consistently. What you have to understand about pressures and velocities are the numbers that are published are averages NOT absolutes. What you really want to see is the Standard Deviation and Extreme Variation numbers, which of course are never published.

Recoil is the real enemy of those beautiful Side x Sides and Over /Unders. I believe what the fellow hunters with the light 16 gauge game guns really should be looking for are 3/4, 7/8 or 1 ounce loads at velocities from 1,050 to 1,200 FPS.

One last thought about chamber pressures. If you wouldn't trust your shotgun to hold up to 10,000 PSI why would you ever trust it at 8,000 PSI??

Please understand that I am only referring to modern firearms, with steel barrels and manufactured to SAAMI Standards. While the European Manufacturers build beautiful and strong shotguns, their older proofing methods are confusing to MOST of us on this side of the Atlantic. PLEASE do yourself a favor, if you have any question about the strength of your shotgun CONTACT the MANUFACTURER, they are the ONLY reliable source of information regarding their firearms.

Guest

Sorry my fingers hit 18,000 psi for proof loads, should have been 14,000 for proof loads in the 16 Gauge.

Wonderful information and insight as well , now would you care to share with everyone the effects of Muzzle Pressure and lets temporarly forget Chamber Pressures for a bit .

Pressure is not the real problem it is charge weight . Recoil destroies wood not pressure .

Regards Charles

More background info and thoughts please , this is good from someone other than us saying this .

Guest

Hi Charles, I never have had the equipment to properly test Muzzle Region Pressure. I do have a few thoughts but, please understand that they are only observations and not absolutes.

Muzzle region pressures, as in actual powder gas pressure, not mechanical or radial pressure of the shot charge, can have an effect on the patterning of a shotgun.

For the best patterns, I am of the opinion that you should match your powder to the shot payload. In other words, don't select Blue Dot for a payload weight of 7/8 oz. By the time you get enough powder in the hull to get reasonable and stable working velocities and pressures, you will also get so much powder gas that it probably will effect the pattern in a negative way, by pushing the wad into the shot charge as it exits the barrel.

If you look into the powders that the ammunition makers use for target loads, they are relatively fast burning, and the patterns are usually excellent. I have tried many different combinations for different target loads, specifically looking for nice patterns. With 7/8, 1 and 1 1/8 oz. of lead shot I have never gotten better patterns by using slower burning powders, always have found that powders like Red Dot, Clays, 700-X etc. are the best suited to the job. I believe that the powder gas pressure is low by the time the shot hits the choke, when using these fast burning powders.

Another indicator that muzzle region pressure has a negative effect on patterns is, if you have a barrel ported, patterns almost always improve. I believe that the choke manufacturers have figured it out also, which is why they often offer ported chokes. They really can't help muzzle jump with the ports in the choke, as they are around the entire circumferrence, but they don't allow the wad to ram into the back of the shot charge. There have also been a few efforts on the choke manufacturers' part to put the brakes on the wad by means slots and grooves that mechanically slow the wad on the exit from the barrel.

That is about all I have experienced.

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

dogchaser,
Thank you sir for sharing your insights and conclusions! Rare indeed to have someone who has hands on experience working in the grey area of the ballistics of shotshells. After some years of casting boolits and reloading, and now a fair few thousands of shotgun rounds downrange, reloading in all it's forms and variations is a never ending learning curve. Please! Keep tawkin'!
Cheers,
R*2

Guest

Rrusse11, I will when I can, just don't call me sir, YIKES, at 52 I feel old enough, Mark is fine!!

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

Mark,
You got it!
Richard

Hello Mark :

Did I get that right ?? Smiling !

Your thoughts are exactly on the money with the findings that we came up with in the 80's concerning muzzle pressure , THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT VARIABLE in load construction not chamber pressure , kinda like compairing apples and oranges .

What happens at the muzzle is what effects the load the greatest of all the variables to be considered when dealing with a shotgun load .

Fin just finished watching the TV Show , did you by chance see the missed first shot on the Grouse ??? Then the follow up shot that brought the Grouse down ??

NO MUZZLE BOUNCE AT ALL 3/4 OZ loads and that bird was a way out there to start with that load allowed me a fast follow up to drop the bird , chances are I would have been unable to have accomplished the shot with any heavier loads due to the uncontrollable muzzle jump .

Mark would it be alright to post your comments on other sites for the other folks to see ?? This is information that needs to get out to folks that need the information , even though some folks will attempt to bash the information it makes no difference , the dogma has went on too long and the truth needs to come out .

Thanks again for your knowledge and willingness to share the truth with the folks of the society .

Regards Charles

Guest

I am not sure which TV Show you are refering to, but I am always interested. Please let me know which show you are speaking about.

Charles let me sleep on the other site question. I feel very comfortable with giving the info to this site. I am also comfortable with the way this site is run. Very nice and the members seem to be open to other ideas, even if they don't agree with them. I really have respect for that. Some other sites guys just want to argue, I am not into that kind of nonsense.

Happy New Year to All!!!

Happy New Year and welcome to our society, Mark.

I'd like to know what type or brand of pressure testing equipment you used at PR?

I've set up an H&R SB2\Topper 16ga, full choke barrel with a strain gauge to test loads on my Oehler model 43 PBL. Using RGL and Win Super X factory loads as the control group. I've only tested a few reload recipes because both these and the factory peak pressures seem quite low compared to posted specs. The fps is a little low but that can be expected using a chronograph that is designed primarily for bullets. However, peak pressure standard deviation was amazingly low at ~2-3 fps.

I talked to Oehler's customer service and they suggested I get new strain gauges and glue as mine are 10 years old. Then do a retest. But they're pretty expensive and do not have an indefinite shelf life. I'm probably going to wait until the weather warms up in the springtime before I make the change. Any experience with my situation?

Guest

PCB Piezotronics made the electronic piezo equipment, I can't remember who made the universal receiver, and H-S Precision made the test barrels.

You are in a very difficult spot trying to do ballistic testing on your own, as you haven't got access to any kind of reference ammo. which you need in order to calibrate your test equipment. Without a reliable reference point to start from you have no way of knowing what is really going on with the pressure.

The Oehler strain gauge has some real drawbacks, since there is no easy way for you to calculate the wide array of variables that the strain gauge can't compensate for. Thickness of the barrel wall, hardness of the metal, chamber size and length, come to mind right off the bat.

I am really not too kean on their system to be honest, you would be much better off (safe) having a ballistics lab test your stuff. Even better there is so much good loading data from powder manufacturers, or possibly the Low Pressure Group.

Guest

D&H Tooling made the Universal Receiver.

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Guest

SAAMI Reference Ammo, is available through the Ammunition Companies, however you need to be a member of SAAMI to get it.

You can make some of up. You need to buy a quantity of Primers, Powder and wads, all from the same lot (at least enough to build 1,000 rounds)and only use it to build the reference ammo. Send a 10 round lot to a ballistics test lab and get the results. Then everytime you set your equipment up, you will need to correct your equipment to the reference ammo you have made.

Obviously, you need to keep all your reference ammo components in a cool (under 70 degrees) dry place. These components will last for years with proper care. If you can get hulls at the same time it would be great, ONCE FIRED or NEW ONLY. Personally I like once fired as the crimps are already set and most folks shoot once fired hulls more than they do new hulls.

For a Piezo System, a CONSISTENT 1 oz. load, with velocity about 1,200 FPS and the pressure around 10,000 PSI, will do nicely. If you are using the Oehler Strain Gauge System than you will need to have both High and Low Pressure Reference Loads. Reference loads NEED to be consistent, so leave the puffed rice, beans etc. out of the load. They should have primer, powder, plastic wad(unaltered, with no filler wads) and shot PERIOD. They need to assemble without ANY special considerations, that way no matter when you put these loads together they will not vary from the original.

You might ask Tom Armbrust for help in building these loads, as he probably has already built them for his own use. I would only use a test lab that uses Piezo Equipment and works to SAAMI standards, that way you know that the results you get are accurate. Again Tom Armbrust is a fellow you might want to contact.

I can help you with more information if you need.