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Besides being a very talented shotgunner, Charles also has a talented pair of setters working for him. I've seen him dump a rooster at fairly close range with the little load and watched that bird run like a sprinter up the side of a coolie faster and further that I'd have thought possible. It is a lesson I will never forget now. Several folks witnessed this. The dogs made the difference. A gut shot pheasant can easily outdistance and elude a human on that vertical terrain and even on the flat. Not so a savvy hunting dog with a good nose.

Not every shot is going to be placed in the head neck region. Sometimes the shot must penetrate from butthole to beak to bring the bird down. bigger shot will do this. Smaller shot will be iffy here.

Had I been toting some #5 and #4 shot heavy loads the day before I saw the above incident, the two roosters I plastered with a pair of long crossing shots at about 40 to 45 yards would probably have been mine to keep. The fast stepping (1300 FPS) 1 ounce loads of #6 shot did not have the poop to put the birds down for keeps. Both birds acted liker they were well hit and went straight in but still obviously had the stuff left to get up and run off. The dogs we had with us at the time were busy elsewhere chasing cripples for other folks. I looked long and hard but found neither bird. After seeing what I saw the next day, I understand what happened. My two birds got up and ran off for parts unknown before I could get to them.

If you don't have a smart bird dog with a good nose, stamina, and some experience readily available, use a load that will tip the odds in your favor by anchoring a well hit pheasant. You will then have a reasonable chance of recovering the bird.

As for 3/4 ounce loads of #8 or #9 shot, use all you can get to perfect your shooting. These little loads at 1150 to 1200 FPS are a joy to shoot for trap and skeet. You can shoot them all day and not get worn out or flinchy from recoil.

Charle's 3/4 ounce wad design is a Godsend for us 16 gauge fans. We can now load all the target ammo we want without all the rigamarole we had to go through before to make 1 and 1-1/8 ounce wads work. Plus the sub gauge load wad will work well for light hunting loads if used wisely.

Charles has created a winner IMO. I'm also certain he understands his creation better than anyone else as well. I also understand that he is going to play and experiment with his wad to his heart's content and wax poetic on its effectiveness regardless of the reality others face. I would not deny him the pleasure. He deserves the fun. He's done us all a great turn here. Thanks Thin Man.

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

6.5 eh? I guess I never bothered to look at conversion, as I have never used the B&P, Have used Game Bore and know the shot size is a little different in Europe.

What is wieght of that load in #6? is it 1 1/16?? That would be good load for me if fps is at least 1300!

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME

Well, its interesting. I just checked the B&P website. They list payload as 1 1/16 oz. I remember a few years back it was specified as 1 1/32 oz (29 gms). Also, the #6 is sold out. But they do have #5s (US #5.5, approx).

Sam

Joined: 12 Oct 2008 Posts: 50 Location: New Jersey

For early season pheasant over a pointing dog, I will shoot a 1 oz. handload of Univ. Clays, hard #6's @ 1275PS out of a MOD choke in my M12. I follow that up with HS6/HS7, 1 1/8 oz. @ 1240FPS of hard lead or coppered #5's. When hunting windy days when the birds are flying hard and far, for the second shot I may switch to 1 1/4 oz. of coppered #5's using Blue Dot in the old high-base brass Federal cases. They are the only cases I can stuff 1 1/4 oz. of shot in. When using my Jap. A5 w/ choke tubes, I'll use an IC or MOD choke depending on the situation and the same loads. Been dabbling with Longshot in the 16 ga. and assuming their published velocities in the reaches of 1400FPS but I'm not sold on it yet for one ounce loads. I've been more than happy with Univ. Clays and one ounce for most upland shooting. If I do my part, I won't need to go to the second or third shot.

I just wish I could get my hands on more of the old-style WW compression-formed hulls for reloading. I've never been happy with reloading their polyformed cases.

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

I recently used a 7/8 oz load of #7 at about 1165 fps with great success. Seemed to kill quicker that my usual Rem GL #6 don't know why unless its was the premium shot vs the soft Rems..

Guest

TB has one of the most important factors well zeroed in here. Nothing can take the place of accurate shooting. We can compensate a bit with more shot and bigger pellets, but doing so adds recoil. Nobody I know enjoys more recoil. It never helps us shoot better. Lots of practice with very comfortable to shoot loads will. Knowing the ammo you are using is not going to clout you makes you more comfortable, which adds to your confidence. Wingshooting is an act of faith. Confidence always helps us put the shot where it works the best.

Joined: 12 Oct 2008 Posts: 50 Location: New Jersey

I have yet to dabble with handloads lighter than 1 oz. in the 16 ga. but I plan on developing some this coming spring. I have always been a proponent of lighter loads. I regularly load and shoot 3/4 oz. in my 20's and 7/8 oz. in my 12's for skeet and sporting clays and never feel undergunned. Not to mention I can shoot 200-400 rounds in a day and not feel beaten up.

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

I don't really notice the reduced recoil of teh 7/8 oz loads that much. It is noticealby less than the REM GL but not really that much less than the Fed Game load.

I'm going quail hunting in George later in Feb and will be using 7/8 oz of #8 . I'll also be using the same load for clays and will see if there is an improvement. Might be the reduced load.

Now that some of the projects are over , I will start another thread and post on the subject of small shot and high velocity on large birds .

Hey GG you forgot to tell of the other birds that I could see the heads and necks not just the one that I should not have shot at in the first place .

Also with a gun that I made a combo set out of a set of barrels that are bent to beat the band so I took them out to cyl and cyl and attempted to shoot them , bad idea not the choke part but bent barrels are not the best thing to shoot with ( bought the barrels over the internet in the white from a collector and now I know why Marlin never put them on a gun , I made the attempt to straighten and am close but not good enought for me at any distance ( oh well will work in close cover on woodcock and such ) .

Seeing tail feathers going over a bank is not the most optimum shot to take , pretty poor judgment on my part , but Peach saved the day , with her I can take those extra 5% of shots that I would otherwise never think of taking , ie: dumb slapstick shots of only a tail going over a bank .

Going to rest up a few days and stop thinking for a wee bit , just plain ole tired is all .

Regards Charles

Guest

16 Gaugeguy,

Are both you and Charles from Massachusettes? Are you hunting in Mass?

I didn't pay attention to your location, I thought you two were from the midwest.

Mark

I had the pleasure of joining Nick and a dozen other 16GA members including Doug for the hunt on the Standing Rock reservation. This is the same hunt filmed for the DVD.

Nick, your comments only confirm my point. Not every shot is going to hit the head and neck, no matter how good we might be. We all blow shots and take chances perhaps we should not in the heat of the fray so to speak. It's human to err. Good dogs will often save the day.

Dogless hunters need to take these things into account and choose their ammo for the conditons they face. If I had done so the day before, I'd have probably gotten my two birds. I erred, therefore I'm human--counter to some of the less complimentory opinions to the contrary around here. Laughing

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

For the last 3 years, I've been using a 16 gauge French-made side-by-side, built around 1920, 2.5" chamber, weight about 6lbs, choked tight modified and very tight full, for shooting walked-up and driven pheasant here in the UK.

Since factory loaded 16 gauge shells are very expensive and hard to find over here, I handload all my ammunition.

I've had good results with;

1oz lead shot #7
Two 1/2" fibre wads
One 1/8" card wad over the powder
EITHER 21 grains Unique OR 22 grains Herco
Remington STS primer

Range is anything from 20 to 45 yards, though these loads will kill a bird cleanly at 55 yards if I do my bit. I tried #6 shot, but quickly went back to #7 after wounding but not killing several birds; I find #7 is the best size for clean, humane kills.

I don't have a chronograph or any means of measuring pressure. However, both loads feel much lighter on the shoulder than Gamebore or Eley factory ammunition, and I've seen no evidence of excess pressure (flattened primers, bulged brass &c). The gun - 80+ years old - is still as tight as the day I bought it.

Very few people reload shotshells in the UK, so components are hard to get hold of. I therefore make my own wads; the 1/2" fibres are cut from expansion joint filler board using a rotary cutter mounted in a drill press. The shot's home-made, too!

I'd be very reluctant to go back to a 12 gauge for pheasants

Hello Lemming :

I would love to hear more about the hunting and shooting over there .

I also would ask if you would know of anyone that I may contact that might be interested in becoming a distributor for our new wad ???

What is your French Double ??? Ideal ?? Darne ?? or others that I may or may not have heard of ??

Tell us more !!!!!!!

Regards Charles