16ga.com ~ View topic - Federal Hull crimping issues. (pics included)

Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 33

I'm having an issue with obtaining a proper crimp using Fed Hulls. The re-loader is a Sizemaster. Most crimps either turn out swirled or deformed. I've adjusted the height of the crimping punch, but that doesn't seem to help. I've noticed that sometimes after pre-crimping, the folds don't look symetrical and invariably, after the final crimp the end result is a swirl or deformation. Could my pre-crimper be defective possibly? Are there any other adjustments I could make?

The load I'm using is...22gr Universal Clays, BP SG16 wad and 1 oz. of shot. No fillers.

[/img]

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:09 am; edited 2 times in total*

It looks like you are putting too much plastic into your crimp. First make sure your shot/wad column is tall enough inside the shell. The top of the shot should be even and right between a 1/4 and 5/16 inch below the shell mouth. If it is, then go from there. If it is below this height, you might need either lighten your wad pressure a bit or slip a 28 gauge card wad of the right thickness into the shot cup under the shot to get the right height. The final crimp folds must rest firmly on the shot without being pushed up by too much wad pressure. If thjere is too much room under the folds, the crimp will collapse in and not take a good "set".

Start by checking your wad pressure. Your plastic wad should seat firmly on the powder, but not be crushed down on it. Raise your wad ram up, then lower it down a bit at a time until you just move the pressure indicator up a tad when you seat the wad on the powder. Doing so will give you about 10 pounds pressure which is plenty. If your column is still too low, then use the filler wads under the shot to get things right.

Another solution could be to find a better fitting plastic wad. However, there are not all that many 16 gauge wads available, so finding out the right thickness 28 gauge filler wad is very handy knowledge to have. You can cut some 1/2 inch diameter discs out of an old plastic butter tub for now to find out what you need to get things right. Then figure up the totasl thickness and order the closest 28 ga nitro card wad you can find.

However, for now, let's assume your shot column is the right height. Next, try adjusting your crimp starter up an 1/8 of an inch at a time to reduce the amount of plastic you are putting into the fold at the shell mouth. Do this until the swirl goes away without leaving a hole in the middle of the crimp. You might also have to play with the adjustments of your final crimp die a bit as well. Start with the crimp starter and adjust it first. Then play with the crimp die. Play with both until you find the balance between the two that gives you a good tapered crimp which is both closed in the middle and will stay closed.

Be sure to experiment with the adjustment of the top punch in your crimp die as well. Setting the crimp folds nice and flat and also the right depth below the crease or ridge around the outside of the crimp is important as well. About .050" to .060" deep is perfect. The crease around the outside of the folds is the key to locking them in place so it is important. However, this will be about the last adjustment you might need to make. Think of it as fine tuning your crimp.

Much of what you will need to do is just simple trial and error. All of these adjustments are important to getting the perfect crimp. The final crimp is very important to how well your reload will perform. Play with things until you get the hang of what each crimping station does and how your shot column height affects the crimp as well. Make one adjustment at a time and take your time. Good luck.

Guest

The crimp starter is set to low, making the final crimp die fold and crimp too much of the hull wall, which causes the swirl or lopsided crimp. back the crimp starter off 2 turns(up), then try to crimp another shell. if there is a tiny hole in the center. lower the crimp start 1/4 turn until the hole is gone.

Crimp starters cause a lot of problems, but folks always want to adjust the final crimp die first. The crimp starter determines how much material gets folded or crimped. The plunger on the final die adjusts the depth of crimp. The cam adjusts the amount of taper applied to the case mouth.

The crimp depth should be about 1/16" and the outside diameter of the crimp should have a nice inward roll to it.

The crimp is a very important part of reloading. The crimp holds all components in the shell in a constrained state until enough powder gas is produced and overcomes the crimp. The better the crimp the more consistent the ballistics. A lot of guys spend time hand weighing powder and shot, for the most part that is only wasting time. Spend the time getting the crimp right.

Another sign of a well thought out load is how the components fit in the shell before crimping. If you find yourself putting a lot of wad pressure to stuff everything inside or adding stuff (beans, rice crispies, cherrios etc) to get a load to crimp properly, find another load.

Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 33

Great info guys. Exactly what I'm looking for.

It does seem like I have quite a bit of room left over after dropping the shot into the hull, leaving excess plastic to crimp. I used a 12 ga Sizemaster in the past and don't ever recall having that much hull left above the shot column. Maybe this is the issue. If this is indeed the problem, I will be a little dissapointed as I chose this wad for it's ability to not require fillers with 1 oz of shot. Also, fwiw, I'm putting very little pressure on the wad when seating it on top of the powder.

One last question, how much should the load of shot overflow the shot cup?
One thing that surprised me was how much 1oz of shot overflows the shotcup on the SG16. The wad cup volume is advertised as 7/8 oz. Is this normal, even though the wad is advertised as being optimum for 1oz loads?

Anyway, thanks for all the info. This should keep me busy for awhile.

MOJO

Guest

If the top 2 or 3 layers of shot are outside the shotcup, it isn't a problem. Once the cartridge is fired setback will put all of that shot into the shotcup. Even if it doesn't , the setback forces on top few rows is minor compared to the forces applied to the bottom of the shotcharge, so pellet deformation is minor.

Guest

You might want to try the new Claybuster 16WW clone. It has enough cup capacity for at least 1 ounce of shot and is plenty long enough to fill the Federal hull nicely. You could even drop in one 28 gauge card wad if you want the shot to sit even with the cup mouth. See my back posts for my report on the dimensions compared to the two Remington wads.

The new Claybuster version has been modified to fit polyformed hulls better as well, so you should not have any issues with powder migration if you stick to disc powders like Unique. There is a bunch of older Hercules/Alliant data available for this wad and the Federal hull. You can easily use the same wad and hull for 1-1/8 ounce loads as well.

Go online and google up Claybuster for their 1-800 number. Call them up during the day and ask for a free 25 wad sample bag. They sent me one in less than a week. Nice folks, and friendly too. It will not cost you one thin dime to try them.

Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 33

16gg,

I actually have a trial bag, but haven't attempted to load one yet. It appeared to me the shot cup was way too big for a 1oz load. I compared it to the sg16 and the volume on the CB wad looked to be almost twice what the SG was, so I assumed it wouldn't work with out a filler. Maybe I'll give it a try. From all the info I'm reading on the above posts, it looks like I may have to break down and use a filler no matter what type of wad I'm using. That darn Fed hull is just too cavernous.

MOJO

Guest

Shootingsioux

Normally I would agree with a cam adjustment. However the picture shows that the crimp starter is down so far that it is creating arcs in the top of the crimp. Also if the fellow backs off the cam to get the swirl out. he will get a bell mouth on the top of the crimp instead of a nice taper. He isn't getting the proper taper now, less cam will make it worse.

Also if you look at the first picture you can see how lopsided the crimp is.
Too much material is being folded over and it caused one side to actually collapse, the crimp starter is the problem.

Another point is, if there wasn't enough wad column, the crimp wouldn't be that flat, it would be concave.

We 16 ga reloaders are an adaptable and innovative bunch. We need to be. I've found the 1/8 inch thick (.135") 28 ga or .50 cal nitro card wads to be indispensable. They just happen to displace 1/8th ounce of shot per card wad in every 16 ga plastic wad I've tried them in. It works to perfection without any guesswork. It is also quick and easy to do. Just drop the number you need into the shot cup and seat the whole shebang with your ram. the ram flattens the wads out in the bottom of the cup nicely. It takes but a split second to grab a card wad or two out of a 1 or 1/2 pint plastic food tub by your wad dispenser or container and insert them in as you are putting the plastic wad in position. Then dump your shot and crimp. Done. I've figured out it adds about a 1/2 minute tops to the time it takes me for each box of 25 reloads. This is nothing considering some of the other stuff I've had to do.

Contact the owner of Circle Fly Wads directly by phone after you google them up. He will give you a great price on a 5K bulk box shipped right to your door. He makes all his own product. His price is far, far cheaper than buying them by the 100 count bag from aftermarket sources Like Ballistic Products. Trust me, you'll use them up in a couple of years if you shoot regularly. I guarantee you will be more than pleased. Good luck.

Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 33

Looks like I'll begin with the crimp starter. Seems like a logical place to start. I'm also going to add a shot filler to see if that helps. My guess is, thats part of the prob since there is so much hull exposed at the top of the shot column.

One last question......I have 2 boxes of shells that contain the swirl or the deformation. Are these ok to shoot? This is a fairly mild load to begin with, guess maybe it will affect the pattern more than anything.

Thanks again for all the input.

Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Eastern Washington

I wouldn't worry about your current load. i use the exact same one in a federal hull and have had no problems. without a filler, it just dents inward a little, so i usually put a little toilet paper or even an old primer in the shot as filler. works great. The sg16 is a good wad. mess with your loader until you get it right, it is possible.
and i can't see any reason why those shells wouldn't be fine to shoot. As long as they will chamber in your gun.

Guest

shootingsioux

I am cheating though, at one time I had to help folks over the phone as well as in person, the company I worked for sold a lot of MEC presses. I worked in Customer Service for 9 years, so it is second nature.