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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Load testing, Liability, and the Low Pressure Group |
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Posted:
Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:24 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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bowbuilder wrote: |
Yes, this has been an interesting thread for me as well. I really think it comes down to common sense and being responsible for your own actions.
I hope that the threat of liability doesn't keep people from sharing data and helping one another on this forum. That would be a shame.
That said, I plan to never give out "experimental" or untested data. But, If I have had Tom or another agent test a load, I feel that I have some "coverage"...along with the use at your own risk disclaimer.
Besides, liability can't be that big of an issue...just look at the data BP puts out
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BB, you have a good attitude about the subject. I feel much the same. Most responsibler folks do. the problem lays with the unscoupulous folks who never take responsibility for their own actions, try to blame others, and then attempt to exact repairations out of it all. Then there are the scumbags who simply skip the mistake, fake the damages, and go for the money.
Unfortunately, our present civil court systems sometimes encourage this unscroupulous behavior. Things are changing though. Perhaps some day our civil law systems will evolve enough to deal with the problem. Lets hope so. |
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Posted:
Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:18 am
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Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa
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Well in this politcally correct world of liberalizm and no personal responsibility I think this thread will cause alot more people to quit sharing their info. I also believe that this will really hurt the flow of limited info especially for the 16 gauge what a shame. |
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Posted:
Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:01 am
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 224
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pudelpointer wrote: |
Well in this politcally correct world of liberalizm and no personal responsibility I think this thread will cause alot more people to quit sharing their info. I also believe that this will really hurt the flow of limited info especially for the 16 gauge what a shame.
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I really hope not, as I truely value the information and knowledge I have gained on this site and the LPG. |
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Posted:
Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:21 pm
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Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Central Missouri
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Folks the ABILITY TO SEE THROUGH TO THE ESSENCE OF HOW THINGS ARE AND NOT HOW THEY APPEAR , is a gift that we have taken for granted this day and age .
The sharing of loads that we have used and HAVE BEEN TESTED are simply a recommendation of our favorite target or hunting loads that we have found useful to us as shooters and Hunters.
Being as these are ONLY recommendations , this data falls under a HOLD HARMLESS Clause and no more than sharing your favorite apple pie recipe with other folks .
I can post the load data sheet for you folks to look at for the loads that I have had tested , I just cannot place this in print stating that it is perfectly safe , just that I had the load tested by Precision Reloaders or Tom Armburst and this is the data sheet that I received back from them , and in no way do I condone the use , other than the sharing of TESTED INFORMATION .
How many gun articals do you see the NRA or other publications , where the author has run a test and shared the loads and data used in working up that artical ???
Now that we have all played attorney and failed lets get back to the 16ga.
Regards Charles |
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Posted:
Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:39 pm
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Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 591
Location: Plains, MT.
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I'm with you Charles. I would rather have some fun than worry myself to death.
Ron |
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Posted:
Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:35 am
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 224
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Charles, were where you a whole bunch of posts ago? Thi could have been a much shorter thread. You gave the answer I was wondering about. Thank you. |
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Posted:
Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:04 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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I think the hold harmless clause applys to non-professional individuals sharing their personal data. Once an individual starts charging a fee, the hold harmless clause may not apply everywhere or equally from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Our civil courts are often used for political reasons as well. There are a lot of trial balloon cases brought to test the waters by state officials with plenty of public funds to expend on the suits. The Mass Attorney General was exploring this way a few years back. He caused a lot of grief for Ma resident reloaders until we figured out ways around his horse manure. He is gone now, and the new administration has bigger fish to fry.
However, I'm not worried about it as a non-professional. I would recommend we regular folks here not get overly concerned. We have a right to share knowledge without interfereance under the freedom of speech amendment. |
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Posted:
Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:29 pm
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Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Central Missouri
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Hello Bowbuilder :
I can only assist and offer suggestions , I cannot change anyones mind or make a decision for anyone .
Therefor I chose to wait and see what the motive was behind the postings , reading between the lines is what Ole Ben and I do best .
I would have to say you done very well with your post .
By the way do you build bow's ???
Regards Charles |
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Posted:
Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:43 pm
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 224
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Charles,
The name came from an experimental compound bow I was building at the time. After a $500 investment in getting some cams made, and some rough machine work...I managed to find out why bows are not built the way I was thinking Oh well, live and learn. It was fun trying. |
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Posted:
Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:52 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Wait and see is always a wise course of action in legal matters--especially if it involves a political hot button issue. Better to let the sharks and the crocs feed on the less wary. Getting some legal insurance can help as well. Then you can consult a lawyer and get a fairly straight answer. He would then rather avoid touble than take it head on. |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:32 pm
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Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Central Missouri
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It has been brought to my attention that clarity is in order here .
For you folks that are starting out , the VERY FIRST THING YOU DO IS GET A LOADING MANUAL .
Then in the front of the manual somewhere is the small print section , it gives you the FIRST COMMANDMENT OF RELOADING , data furnished here is tested and only to be used as a guide , approach all loads with a 10% reduction in charge weight and work up from there .
Other things are in the small print as well , it would do everyone to look at the disclaimers that the Manufactures place in their loading manuals .
Regards Charles
Regards Charles |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:09 pm
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted:
Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:25 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: West MI
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All good stuff here. I think this thread highlights the importance of following published recipes and doing it right. But also brings to light dangers in this hobby because of the litigious society we have become. And to ignore that fact IMO is foolish. Not saying to live in terror because of it, but to be truly be aware of it. If this thread brings some information to light that a reloader hasn't considered while participating in or taking up this hobby it's done it's job.
I'm thankfull for this board where I can exchange ideas and concerns and have the members of the forum freely exchange information for the benefit of the forum. Without being personally lambasted for having a simple concern or curiosity.
I cannot afford the time or money of being pulled into either justifiable or frivolous law suits that blossom in this social climate but the threat is there. Maybe thats the check and balance. I'll still reload because for me the benefits outwieght the dangers. But I know several learned people who do not participate in this hobby because of the information we are tossing around.
I do know this; if I was laying in a bed unable to do much because of a chunk of someones barrel stuck in the back of my brain. My wife would stop at nothing (legaly) in seeking repairations for someone elses unfortunate moment.
All good stuff, thank you gentlemen, Mike |
_________________ Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up. |
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Posted:
Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:32 pm
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 224
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shootingsioux, Sir, I think you have confused me with someone who is looking to sue someone? And no, I am not afraid of reloading. I simply had a question and asked. I thought that is what this forum was for.
Am I fearful? You bet. When people will put a chopped off finger in a bowl of chili just to make a lawsuit...Yes, I watch my back. To ignore the fact that some people will sue you for the slightest reason would be careless.
However, my question has been answered. Thank you Charles. Let's get back to the 16 and reloading. |
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Posted:
Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:50 pm
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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