16ga.com ~ View topic - Elmer Keith's 1-3/8 ounce 16 gauge load ?

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

Does anyone remember the specifics of Elmer Keith's 1-3/8 ounce 16 gauge load ?

Think he got Remington to factory load it.

Elmer was a fan of the 16 gauge.

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Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Dave, you need to find yourself a 10 gauge Parker. Wink

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

I know of a load using IMR's 4227 crafted by Don Zutz and published in Handloader magazine for 1 3/8oz. for the sixteen gauge. I have never heard of Keith's load.

I have it on good authority that Elmer's initial testing of the load went something like this:

KAAABOOOOM!!!! Elmer was thrown back so hard and so fast by the tremendous recoil of the load that he woke up in the 17th Century, was mistaken for a wizard, and pilloried by the inhabitants of a remote French hamlet. He was missing for several days until he turned 180 degrees, fired the second barrel, and woke up in his backyard--at which point, he ran in to his typewriter and documented the experience.

Unfortunately for us, his well known penchant for exaggeration and overdoing it a bit caused the editors to scrap the manuscript. So we never got to read about his expliots in this case.

Next time I will tell you about the time Elmer rigged a shoulder holster for a 155 howiter and learned to quick draw and fire it from the hip. Very Happy

Elmer preferred 1 1/8oz loads in the 16 gauge Ithaca SxS he owned, not shooting 1oz even on doves. HE didn't develop a 1 3/8oz 16 bore load.... Don Zutz however did. (as woodcock mentioned) Elmer shot his other Ithaca a lot more than the 16 bore. It was chambered for 10 gauge 3 1/2" loads. He hunted a lot of birds with those 2oz loads sometimes with 6's!. Even had Western load 2oz loads of #3 Lubaloy shot special for him. Why would he want a 1 3/8oz 16 load? Actually, Elmer very rarely if ever reloaded shotshells if you want to know the facts.
Shotguns were Elmer's weakest disipline, although he was a pretty good wingshot. Rifles next.... extremely skilled here, then handguns as his top disipline. He reloaded and tested extensively for both rifle and handgun.
His skill was phenomenal and could be taken as BS from those less skilled. More a skill beyond normal understanding if the truth be known.

We still shoot a double action revolver event with a technique devised by Elmer and still not to be in type in any of his works... I though pretty highly of myself using handguns.... I didn't think a double action revolver was good for much after ten feet or so shooting it double action; actually preferring a single action revolver for all I did.... Then I was taught Elmer's technique.... It wasn't fun to learn I didn't really know S#$@ about double action shooting!

This is not written down somewhere.... This is just how it is for those that live in Elmer's neighborhood and know the facts from fiction...

Slidehammer

Guest

16CC (Cliff Clavin) wrote:

Slide, my post was meant to be tongue in cheek. I even used to believe everything the man wrote was gospel..right up to the time I read his story about the now famous 800 yard plus .44 magnum one shot kill on a deer.
I also now understand why Jack O'Conner used to lay on some almost flammable sarcasm on Elmer about some of his more outrageous claims. Jack was also an excellent shot with rifle, handgun and shotgun. He also had a penchant for truth and accuracy in his writing, as well as having one of the sharpest wits in the business. Theri arguments are still entertaining reading. They also both made a tidy living in so doing it.

Elmer was known to be a truely excellent shot with either rifle or handgun. He was also a gunwriter during a now long gone era where telling semi-windies was a form of entertainment and not a cause for lawsuits. He loved to promote any of his ideas to the max and his writing as very colorful as well. It was his living, and his fans expected it. Some of his ideas also culminated in some of the most useful things there are for a gun enthusiast. I own and shoot several .44 mags including a nice model 94 16" carbine. I also still cast and use the .45 Long Colt Keith semi-wadcutter. It is about the deadliest cast hunting bullet I've ever used. It will just plain hammer a deer--but probably not at 800 plus yards. Very Happy

Oh Hi TT, I did not see you come in. How's the sword swinging practice goin for ya? Don't trip over your black belt on the way out now. Bye. Laughing

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

The Keith-O'conner conflict has been raised after twenty some years--This is great!!!!!! My vote goes out for Keith---The man's experience,knowledge and willingness to pursue new ideas were/are still second to none--BTW there is a Keith museum at the Cabela's in Boise---Don't recall any for Ol' Charlie Twisted Evil

I know that 16GG,

Here's a little more true "Keith" to show the man and his skill at a more personal level...

Keith really was something else with handguns at long range! He broke up half the rocks laying around here in eastern Idaho and western Montana just practicing!

A great shotgunning/handgunning buddy of mine (now gone too) was great friends with Elmer for many years and tells the story when they were hunting jackrabbits one day in the Pahsimeroi... They would walk-up the jacks and then draw and shoot them double action with revolvers. Ralph would use a K-22 with hollow points usually, but he said Elmer would use his 4" .44 Mag most of the time and still "wax him"..

Ralph was not easy to "wax" believe me!

They were about to go home when Ralph saw a sitting jack some 500 yards away in a sagebrush clearing...
Elmer had a Ruger #1 7mm Mag. Ruger had given it to him for testing. He also has some 175gr Federal factory loads for testing. Ralph said the gun and load would really shoot!
So Elmer 82 years old, throws a bag across Ralph's hood out there in the sagebrush and tells Ralph to watch the bunny. Ralph looks through the binoculars and Elmer squeezes off... The bullet hit right under the rabbit close enough to cut belly hair!
Elmer was quiet as they packed and left for home 60 miles away.
"Sorry I missed that Jack..." Elmer said after a couple of miles.
"Elmer, that Jack was 500 yards!" Ralph said.
"I know."

Another 10 miles transpired.

"I can't believe I missed that Jack..... I could see it if I was using my .44 as those long handgun shots need a luck luck along with the skill... But that Ruger can shoot!"

Ralph said missing that jackrabbit bothered Elmer off and on until his death a couple of years later...

Just a little of Elmer's character and what he expected of himself long before anything reached his typewriter...

Slidehammer

Member Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 376 Location: North ID.

I went to the University of Idaho with a number of guys from Salmon back in the early to mid 70's.

They had a few Elmer stories, some of which were seriously funny! Of course I had no way of verifying whether or not the stories were embellished. The guys I knew had a pretty good knack for telling a story.

One they told was when he was watching a western on Television and shot out his tv during a quick draw! Don't know if he won or not!

Hello All

I checked my hoard tonight after skeet shooting and the stoutest that I could find was Remington Magnum at 3 1/2 dram x 1 1/4 ounce. I also found some later boxes marked Remington Magnum Max Dram x 1 1/4 ounce.

Anyone find any factory 1 3/8 ounce loads?

Enjoy the day
Mike

Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 224

Hello All,

I have a 1 3/8 oz load that I will be sending to Tom Armbrust for testing, using a cheddite hull, the mm16 wad and Alliant Steel powder. It makes a very nice looking shell. I'll let you guys know what the results come back as.

You know, its truely amazing. After all this time, Elmer's name can still incite a semi-riot among us gun enthusiasts. A true gun crank has to love somebody like that. Every time I visualize Elmer, all I can see is that huge stetson which seemed to be about the size of a beach umbrella on his head and the two foot long cigar as big as a hoagie sandwich sticking out of his mouth. Elmer was not a physically big man, but he was a giant for all that. The hat fit him to a tee. Very Happy

I was thinking that Elmer Keith was actually fond of the 16 gauge. I remember reading an article titled "Qeeen of Scaterguns", where Keith told of the benifits of the 16 over the 12 and 20. I think the article appeared in a Guns and Ammo magazine probably back in the 80's. I could be wrong about the the magazine, but I remember reading the article for sure. To bad I can't find it in some of the old copies. It was a good one.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Skeettx I'm not surprised that you didn't find any 1 3/8oz. factory loads for the 16. The 16 is not a 1 3/8oz. gun IMO---nor a 1 1/4 oz'er for that matter.
I sent Bowbuilder Zutz's recipe for the 1 3/8 oz load. Interestingly the pressures were rather low using the 4227 but the recoil, according to Zutz, was substantial.
I loaded and fired a few of these things just for the hell of it many years ago----------I won't do it again.