16ga.com ~ View topic - Elmer Keith's 1-3/8 ounce 16 gauge load ?

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

From Elmer Keith historian Al Marion, who was instrumental in getting Cabela's and Ted Keith together for the Elmer Keith Museum in Boise...

Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 31 Location: N. FL

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

Really didn't expect the above type of posting on the 16ga.com forum.

At least Keith didn't claim as friends people who bragged about their criminal activity and stupidity. Doesn't speak well of one's judgment or credibility to have such friends. In Idaho going through someone else's personal property could get someone accidently shot. Getting shot with a hunting rifle or handgun while deep in the Salmon River wilderness area wouldn't be too much fun, one would guess.

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I think we might be forgetting some of our own American heritage in this matter. We are a nation which has pretty much risen from the blood of common folks. We have no legacy of royalty or divine creation or intervention to inspire us to greatness. Our founding fathers rejected those concepts when they framed our constitution. They believed in the ability of a common people to govern and inspire themselves to greatness. So the earliest generations of common Americans invented the tall tale and our own set of fictional or semi fictional heros like Paul Bunyon, Pecos Bill, and Mike Fink to to help us reach beyond the common and accomplish the extraordinary. Elmer Keith grew up in that era. I think he understood the importance of the tall tale to inspire folks to greatness.

Jack O'conner was an extraordinary person in his own right. He was a remarkable hunter and a gifted marksman. He also was a college English professor and an excellent and very precise writer. Jack could tell you what could be done, and he also could tell you how to do it. His technical expertise and sharp intellect are still drawn on today. However, Jack's writing was a bit dry at times and not exceptionally inspirational for many folks.

Elmer's sense of the dramatic and his willingness to stretch the facts a bit could actually get folks to try some of the stunts he professed were possible. He did it to me. I actually swallowed enough of his particular brand of myth and attempted to go beyond what some folks considered the limits of what could be done with a rifle or a shotgun. I believed in Elmer's claims enough to actually accomplish some exceptional things too. I went beyond my own self imposed limitations and those of commonly accepted beliefs and reached some of the goals he inspired me to set for myself.

If any of the folks here remember Walt Disney's story about Dumbo, then some of you might understand the importance of the magic feather. It inspired that little elephant to reach beyond his imposed limitations and fly. Elmer did the same thing for a whole generation of shooters and sportsmen. I for one, will always be greatful.

Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 31 Location: N. FL

Member Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 129 Location: Alabama

Man, if you don't miss ol' Elmer and all those yarns and the hoopla with Chuck, then you ain't American! I used to sit out with a .44 as a teenager and try to shoot trees and rocks past 100 yards...thinking I could do that, too.....tough, that. I sided with elmer, and it's why I've sold every .270 I ever came into posession of, and have never bought one with the intent to keep it. Very Happy

There is a huge gap between acting irresponsibly and trying a shot on a game animal that one has not proven himself capable of, and pushing one's limits to improve in a sensible way. A responsible person will test out a new gun or load or technique on paper or clay targets first, and then practice to make perfect. If he succeeds in improving his equipment and his abilities to a reach a reliable and consistant level of proficiency, then applying those improved tools and skills to hunting is perfectly acceptable. This is the best way to make progress IMO.

Jack O'Conner's writing taught me to test things first in a scientific manner. Elmer inspired me to try. They both had a hand in helping me become a better shot and a better sportsman in my opinion.

Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 31 Location: N. FL

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

Slidehammer,

Thank you for your comments.

I knew Elmer Keith. My family knew Elmer Keith. We knew Bob Hagel, close friend and hunting partner of Elmer, and other lifelong friends of Elmer. To hear a man's reputation smeared by umpteenth removed trash hearsay turns my stomach.

As to handguns, have been accumulating handguns seriously for 30+ years including 45 Colt Linebaughs, 454 Casulls, 475 Linebaughs, 500 Linebaughs, built by folks like John Linebaugh, Hamilton Bowen, and other master gunsmiths. Been swaging bullets since I was 16. Have been experimenting with cast bullets with a wide variety of shapes and alloys in a wide variety of media from Hagel Boxes to water to newspapers to boards to gelatin. When you have your own lab and never have to travel to the range in order to shoot at a mile distance you can accelerate learning a little.

Shot in IHMSA competition back in the 1980s.

Have taken 6 x 7 elk with a Ruger Bisley 44 (at less than 25 yards). Have hunted Africa with handguns using revolvers and Colt 1911s.

Have taken prairie dogs with revolvers and semiauto handguns at close range. On bull prairie dogs at under five yards, my youngest son likes the 380 KelTec over the 32 KelTec due to its wind bucking capability (see the light humor).

Participated in John Linebaugh's seminars in Cody. Provided the medium and big bore guns (378 Wby, 460 Wby, 500 A-Square, 500 Nitro Express, etc) and ammunition that was used in the comparisons published in the American Handgunner articles by John Taffin and in other magazine articles. Personally fired the shots into the soaking wet newspapers and measured the depth and diameter of the holes in front of 100+ witnesses. Yes, in several cases revolver bullets outperformed the elephant guns. People still comment about the 460 Wby 500 soft Hornady that only penetrated 9 inches into wet newspapers and turned that 9 inches into real confetti. That recovered bullet was flat as a pancake. On the other hand, there were hard cast LBT revolver bullets that approached 4 foot of penetration in the same media.

Ross Seyfried reported similar results on African, Australian, and American big game comparing big bore revolvers to rifles.

I wouldn't want to stand in front of Elmer Keith, John Linebaugh, Jeff Cooper, or Ross Seyfried with them firing their personal handguns at me at any range.

Personal experience over umpteen years and lots of experimentation with a wide variety of guns and ammunition on a variety of targets is needed to form useful opinions.

That is why I come to the 16ga.com forum. Looking for real expertise on 16 gauges by people who have actually done it and done it more than once.

Repeating trash about the dead is never acceptable.

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Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 31 Location: N. FL

Wow, you guys are sure touchy about someone quetioning your shooting deity. Very Happy

No, I was not, and am not an Elmer Keith fan. Though I recognize his contribution to shooting, I was never attracted to people who brag & are careless with the truth. Or people who encourage hunters to take shots that inevitably will cause wounded game or worse. I also thought he was out of line, personally attacking other writers who had differing opinions. Especially when they were usually right ...
As for the hunt camp story, I got it from one of those who was there, who I've known for 40 yrs. It was a funny incident that you seem to let bother you. Lighten up a little Smile

In my life, in competition, military, business etc, I've found it's not the one who brags the most or talks the loudest who wins the races or the shooting matches.
I was not aware Elmer won any national shooting titles, though some friends who shot with him say he was a good shot. My skepticism of many his claims comes from his own writings. The horse's mouth, so to speak..
As for the number of heavy handgun rounds I shoot, it's none (these days). I have a bad elbow that is aggravated by heavy recoil. I do shoot 2-3 matches a month in bullseye & muzzle loading pistol, which is IMO the most difficult pistol disciplne. When you think you're a good pistol shot, try a flintlock offhand @ 50 yards. Laughing

All my shooting is offhand, one handed, which is how I think one should shoot a "handgun" Confused

I never thought the number of rounds you sent downrange was nearly as important as how well you shoot. You obviously have a different opinion on that. Since you asked, I have only placed 2nd in one match in the past year (won all the rest) and have won the FL state ML pistol match the past 5 years. Which probably shows I can shoot a pistol as well as the next man/woman. But even with that, I would never, ever shoot at a deer over 100 yards with a handgun, and prefer to shoot @ 25 yds or less.
Are you advocating that 200 fpe is adequate for deer hunting, even when you can't place shot within 10-14 feet of each other? Let alone 3" accuracy needed for responsible, humane kills.
I've also been a gunsmith for 40+ years and have heard it all and seen a lot of it.
I'm sure your vast experience is far greater than mine, and all the recognized experts with great experience, who demonstrated many of Keith's statements to be BS, were also inferior to you.
So, no one can can question the statements of someone who died? Once he's kicked up to the big range in the sky, everything he said, no matter how outrageous, becomes gospel... right ? Rolling Eyes

They really should quit picking on that Darwin fellow Wink

All that righteous indignation must weigh heavy on your shooting arm Very Happy

Greg

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 354

Looking through "Shotguns by Keith" I see no mention of any 16ga load bigger than what he calls the heavy 11/8 ounce loads. He does speak highly of the 16 bore.