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Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Hi All,

I have been using the BP SG16 Gualandi wad with 1 oz loads in Fiocchi hulls as prescribed, and everything is absolutely great...except for one little thing...I'm not sure the patterns are all that great. Too many fliers. The SG16 shot cup fills with .68 oz. So a bunch of pellets are riding down the barrel on bare steel. Is there a wad for a straight wall hull that fills with a full 1 oz?

TIA

Brewster

Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 234 Location: KY

There are recipes for using the remington wad in the fiocchi hull. I havn't shot any of them but did load one Saturday and it crimped fine but took just a little less than 1 1/8 oz to fill. BP states that that wad (SG16) is designed so that the shot not in the cup forms the "doughnut" outer edges of the pattern and that that is in the cup forms the center.

What constriction choke are you using?

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

IC and Mod chokes

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

The database has lots of 1 oz. loads listed for Rem SP-16 but none with Unique (my powder). It does list a 1 1/8 oz load with Unique and SP-16 however.

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

Brewster,
Take a look at the Cheddite wad for a deeper cup. Grafs has 'em.
Cheers,
R*2

The B&P 16 ga Z wads also have a deeper shpt cup. Graf's carries them. BPI also has them under the name "Trap Commander"--same wad. I've found them to produce very decent patterns. The new Claybuster WW16AA clone is also a good alternative as well as an R16 Remington 1 ounce wad.

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

16gg beat me to it. I use the Z16 or Trap Commander for 1oz loads. Work fine for me. Although I can't say I have had any pattern issues with the other wad.

Guest

Brewster,

Why do you think you are getting fliers?

Forget the barrel scrub idea, most of that shot ends up in shotcup upon ignition/acceleration and whatever little doesn't, will not suffer bore scrub as there are not enough setback forces at the top of the shot column.

Have you actually patterned the load?

The reason I ask is I have used plenty of the Gualandi wads you mentioned and they have patterned quite well with 1 oz. loads. They pattern a little on the core dense side (which I like).

16 GG has had the same experience with the B & P that I have.

Ole Ben and I shot 5K of the Trap commanders and give up .

We went with the 1618 & 1621 . Same wad different knobs in over powder cup , nothing different enough to write home about as far as loading is concerned but a great wad , but it being a true 28 Gram or 32 Gram load well it will load em alright , but they make a wonderful 21 & 23 Gram load in a 65 MM hull , we still have 10+ K of em and I will load these in cut down hulls , I love the wad just unfortunate the wad is quite load specific .

The AA Claybuster and R16 wads are a compromisable load that you might want to look at for the heavier loadings .

Regards Charles

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Do not be quick to judge a load that you intend to use for wingshooting by shooting paper , only judge a load you intend to shoot a stationary target with , by shooting paper .

Sometimes you will be VERY SUPRISED INDEED good or bad , never take anything for granted when shooting a shotgun for patterns and perfomance .

Regards Charles

Guest

Just a gut reaction, there is something else going on.

The wads are top notch. I have seen some fantastic patterns with Gualandi wads.

What do you consider FLIERS?

What distance are you patterning at? What overall percentages are you getting? what is the Core to Annular Ratio?

If you are just looking at the paper and seeing shot outside the 30" circle. That doesn't tell you anything, you have to count, get some numbers. Use 7 1/2 Magnum shot so you don't drive yourself nuts.

How much choke do you really have? As in .010 or .012 or .025?? You have to know this stuff so the numbers mean something. You have to have information to establish a starting point.

Then there is my theory, if it isn't in the 20" core, the pellet doesn't exist.
Forget my theory( that will be another argument) and concentrate on:

1) Overall percentages

2) Core to annular ratio 1.5 to 1 is minimum

3) The distance you are patterning at, I/C doesn't look too good at 35 + yards. Modified doesn't always look too good at much past that sometimes.

I disagree and agree with Mr. Hammack, I have never had a good pattern, that didn't end up being a good wingshooting load. But I have seen some pretty raggedy ass patterns absolutely SMOKE clay targets with regularity, and I mean leave black clouds hang out there at trap doubles..

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Actually my suspicions were first raised while shooting trap. I would dust some targets, but had a very high percentage of weak chips. This was compared to my 12 ga 11-87 with a nice Trulock SC choke, which my kids shoot. It either atomizes the targets into a black fog, or a clean miss. Almost zero chips. The Trulock pattern is very generous, not a laser spot. That's when I went back to the pattern board to see what was going on wiht my 16 ga loads.

I noticed a large number of isolated pellets that were well out of the center or annular ring, several inches away from the nearest neighbor. Essentially useless against either clays or live game. Some of these were in pairs, like they were welded together. There is a nice dense center, and a light but even annular ring, surrounded by a bunch of wasted fliers.

Definitely not what I would have expected, and not what I see with commercial loads. I think the fliers should be within the second ring of pellets, which would improve the performance against off-center clay birds.

I will run some numbers to see what comes up.

Guest

I use the core to annular ratio as a guide to figure out when the pattern is becoming thin. Looking at pellet strikes on a piece of paper is deceiving.

Once I get the numbers, I never look at pellets outside the 20" core, because 5 yards downrange almost every pellet that was in the annular ring is gone and well outside the pattern. The core is the "working" part of the pattern, the annular ring is where the "golden BB" comes from. You also need to remember that a shot pattern is dynamic on 2 counts, (1) that it is moving as a mass, (2) as individual pellets constantly rearranging themselves within the mass as the air and gravity work against them.

Exterior (interior as well) shotshell ballistics, for guys like us, with no real equipment, are very difficult to pin down. Patterning on paper is a tool to help figure out what is going on, but, understand that it is only a vague idea, as each pattern is different. Which is why you need a minimum of 5 patterns from a load to get reasonable statistics.

Then, like Mr. Hammack stated you have to shoot it in the field, to make sure that it matches up with the shooter.

All this ballistic bullshit is fun, but if the stuff doesn't shoot to where you are looking when you are looking there. The guy scoring yells LOST and your buddy says "thanks for the donation", or the rooster laughs at you and you piss off your dog.

Personally, I would rather have a pattern that was core dense and sparse in the annular ring. I can control that type of load with choke. Those real evenly spaced pellet patterns are an indication that you aren't gonna hit squat unless you are in close to the target, because the load is starting to give up at the range you just patterned the load at.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

DC,

I can see the value of a dense central core of the pattern, which is pretty decent with the SG21 wads. The only issue for me is that the fliers don't contribute to anything, they are just wasted, so somewhere the pattern is thinner than it should be. If it were just a few fliers, I would be unconcerned. But there seems to be way too many of them, at least in my opinion.

Brewster