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I have always been a person that will comment on another's choices when they are incorrect. I also will let them continue on if their heart desires that path.

But I am irritated over this "high velocity" wave going on for a selfish reason... as it affects what I buy in non-tox loads. Better put, what I used to buy! Seems nowadays that tungsten matrix has to be driven at the speed of light to work at all! All the while, an affordable non-tox shot for our older guns, which we could reload as we please, is not out there either.

Maybe it's our modern rifles that have created this high velocity shotshell craze. Yes, 7mm Mags and .300 Ultras will hit harder farther out than Grand dad's .30-30 for sure! They have HIGH VELOCITY! S o o o ... maybe if we can get enough extra velocity in our so-called modern shotshells, we can create a late season long range pheasant slayer similar to how our .300 Ultra kills an elk way across the canyon! Yeah man!!! Well, I wish it were only so.....

Physics.... The laws of physics are what we try to defy when we think a small lead pellet can be launched fast enough to make a BIG difference at longer yardages. We forget that it is impact velocity that matters, NOT muzzle velocity!

We talk ballistics with our .300 Ultra! But shot pellets have ballistics too... woeful as they are! A good ballistic program can compute downrange ballistics very accurately when the proper data is entered. Here is where the ballistic coefficient number comes into play, as you will need to know that as an entry! The bigger the number; the better the long range performance in very simplified terms. Other entries are involved.

So what's a good b.c. number? An aerodynamic 7mm or .300 Ultra bullet could have a b.c. of 0.500 or higher. Remember the word aerodynamic....... Grand dad's ol' 170gr .30-30 slug would probably have a b.c. around 0.220 or so depending if round or flat nose. How about a 29gr .22 short bullet? NO ONE THINKS THIS IS A LONG RANGE ROUND! The b.c. is 0.086. So what do you think the b.c. is for a #9 shot pellet? Rounded off to the pellet's advantage the b.c. is a woeful 0.009 !!!!

All this technical info will not help convince the average guy who feels fast shotshell velocities have merit. Their thoughts already defy physics and the math (ballistics), hallucinating just like the title says, after having made a couple shots along the way which convinced them "speed kills"! I've seen Hootch mention three times about high muzzle velocity's long range penetration improvement like it was something.....well, was it/is it?

We have been working for a few weeks on a simplified way to compare fast and slow velocities DOWNRANGE. We thought a penetration test might be a good indicator for us non-ballistician types. So, I developed and chronographed three 3/4oz loads with velocities of 1530, 1205, and 1098 fps, respectively using the same wad and hull for as much uniformity as possible. First, I shot the 1530 fps load against the 1205 fps load with #9 shot at 40 yards onto stacked corrugated cardboard pieces. The holes were marked red on the first and last sheet penetrated by the 1205 load... The 1530 load was then shot onto the same stack. PENETRATION WAS only NINE SHEETS FOR BOTH LOADS!!

So we built a penetration box to further enhance looking for the subtle differences we were seeing...

Now for the rest of the story!

Here's the penetration box.

We were able to get a good supply of scrap manila folder material from a manufacturer of these folders... Hence the small size. This is tough paper that is .015" thick. The box holds 30 sheets with 1" spacing between sheets. Double sheets can be used for the biggest shot. A seasoned 1/4" thick Douglas fir board serves as a backstop behind the 30 sheets.

Here's the front... We profiled a turkey head for kicks and counted the number of pellet strikes in this profile for each test...

Here's the steel pattern plate that allowed us to see the total pattern quality as well as core hits to the penetration box.

The box is mounted and ready against the pattern plate.

West Coast Magnum shot was used in #7, #7 1/2, #8, # 8 1/2, and #9... Hornady Magnum shot (5% Sb) in #4, #5, and #6... All tests and shot sizes are not included, with only a sample being pictured here. The comparison of 5's and 6's (some included on chart) has been an eye opener for us! The initial testing compared 1500MV to 1200MV at 40 yards impact. We were interested in how an increase in shot size equated to an increase in penetration depth with the smaller pellets at 1500MV, as compared to the larger pellets at 1200MV. Some will say this is old school.... i.e more weight, larger shot in the payload.... and that perhaps light ultra fastpayloads aren't the way to go -- especially if we use smaller shot? I have the benefit of living through both old and new technology.... so, forgive me if I don't see modern shotshells and techniques as the holy grail of improvement across the board. Gentlemen, I have proven otherwise along several avenues not related to this testing here; although I wouldn't exclude what we learn here!

Steel shot hasn't been done as of yet...

Picture summary with a chart follows the photo examples.

Here's 3/4oz of 9's at 1200MV and 1500MV from full choke at 40 measures yards impact...

Here's 3/4oz of 6's at 1100MV and 1500MV. Note: 400fps difference here...

Here's my "Conventional" 16 gauge 'turkey' load... An old full choke Winchester Model 97 patterns these into 90%+ patterns at 40 yards time after time. Compare the penetration gain from increasing the shot size from 6's to 5's. 6's at 1500 fps MV penetrate LESS than 5's started at only 1220 fps MV.... There is a strong message here; one should listen to data like this! Here's the impact to look at....

Here's a summary chart of those loads included in this data. The comment section will draw attention to the penetration improvement found.

The 1500fps load patterned worse repeatedly (read every time). Core density was always less! That's right in the middle where that turkey's head needs the best core density! I believe this hyper-velocity load was not only being affected by increased set-back deformation but by being over choked and may have been able to be improved on with somewhat less choke. But a person wanting high velocity for long range improvement should be cautioned that we did NOT see pattern improvement with full choke! All 1500fps loads patterned worse than their slower counterparts, with bigger shot being somewhat less affected.

This cursory report should at least give any sensible individual this to ponder on: That, as hunters/conservationists, it may not be in the interests of our harder-to-kill game birds such as turkey, pheasant, and waterfowl….. to be pursuing them with low volumes of the smallest shot at very high speeds.

... Our total test will hopefully appear as a magazine article in length....

Slidehammer

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Great Job !
Thanks for comfirming why I like my 1150-1200 FPS loads so well.

Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 428

Slidehammer,

Great job! I could not agree more! I have always said that speed may get you there faster, but, you may not have as much energy upon arrival. This is why long distance runner's don't sprint in a marathon. Likewise, this may be why the old 45 Auto is returning as King of the Hill with most handgunners. They don't go real fast, but they knock down whatever they hit when they get there! The 9MM's, 40's & even 10MM's aren't cutting it with the guys who really know! And these guns all have high velocities than the 45! Very Happy

I have always been a BIG FAN of #5's for hunting!!!!!

Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 118 Location: N.Y.

I call it the "Roy Weatherby" School of Ballistics..

If fast is good, faster is better, and too fast is just right!

Guest

Slidehammer,

There are really no surprises with what you have learned. This stuff has been done and redone a few times. What I like about it is that there are no opinions here just cold data.

One question; Is it truly Muzzle Velocity or is it really 3 ft Instrumental Velocity?

Observation, to make higher velocity loads pattern well, you might have to play around with different loads, chokes and barrels. There is no question that higher velocity loads are more difficult to have pattern as well as the slower stuff. The only part I would caution folks on is to believe that if you exceed 1200 FPS that you will get bad patterns universally, that just ain't so.

I also believe that folks miss the point of heavier loads. You need pellet count or the central thickening ratio goes bad real quick. The larger the pellet the heavier the load must be and that includes all pellet sizes.

Very nice work.

Guest

Nice work, Slidehammer!

Remember Ron Forsyth? (sp?) He used to show up here and there on the net and he was a big proponent of bigger shot at lower velocities. He also had the data to back it up.

Little story here. I started out with a hardware store pump 20 gauge when I was a kid. Started my handloading carrer with a "Lee Loader" (hand tools) and went with a 1 oz Herco load that came with the loader. I shot that load for years at ducks (before the steel shot mandate) and everything that flew or hopped. An ounce of 6's. It always performed extremely well. Years later when a guy on our trap squad mentioned he had a chronograph I asked him to check those old Herco loads because I was convinced they must have been pretty speedy based on how they killed, maybe even unsafe.

The results surprised me at the time.

1125 fps!

Thanks for all your efforts.

I've got a few questions/comments.

I'd be curious what the results would be at shorter ranges 20, 30 yds? I don't know the math or I would calculate it. I've shot charles' load at pheasants and grouse, killed 'em dead. Of course I've shot more commercial shells than anything. Maybe it does change the lead- maybe all of us should shoot consistant speeds (at least with in our own personal gunning), and that would keep our personal leads the same across a wide range of shots.

How do the shots respond in heavy wind? Hunting in OK, KS, SD, ND, and IA I have usually had stout winds to play/fight with. It seems to me (no ballistic experience at all, please enlighten me) that a faster pellet would suffer less from the push of the wind.

I think one of the most important things that your experiments shows that you don't really explore is that the high velocity shot that destroyed your pattern. Should be a warning that all of us should pattern our guns with a variety of loads! And then shoot that load as much as possible.

Again thanks for your experimentation and data presentation. While sometimes fun, experiments can grow tedious!

All the best,

ash

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 863 Location: NoDak

Hi, just a wonderful post! Great info and research. What a great job you did. I'm alos in the low velocity camp with a payload of 1oz (sometimes 1 1/8oz).

The problem with this is, those who are in the HV camp will just ignore this info and stick to the loads they like. I have a friend who handloads and his "pet" pheasant killer is a 3", 1 7/8oz of #4 at 1500fps out of a full choke. He claims 80yd shots all the time (truth be told ..more like 35!) But in his mind these are the best in the world. He laughs at my 2 1/2" 1oz loads, even when they kill birds just as dead as his.

A lt of this is all in the mind and what you think will work, no matter what info you have.

Again, great job!!!!

All the best!

Greg

Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 185 Location: Boulder,Colorado

Great Stuff ! thanks for posting this, your data collection device ( high tech sounding,no?) is really nice too. I think I'll stick with my 5's at about 1250 fps for Mr. Phez.

Guest

Slidehammer,

Yes, I had the same experience with skyscreen type chronographs. 2 feet from the muzzle to start screen comes the closest to actual velocities. And yes, full choke does skew the velocities a bit.

SAAMI velocities are always 3 foot instrumental, so Federal velocities are 3 foot, not muzzle and muzzle velocity is normally calculated on this side of the Atlantic. (A lot of European ammo is true muzzle velocity.) SAAMI type test barrels now are made with cylinder chokes (.000 constiction, there might be an exception, memory fails me, but it isn't the 16 Gauge) so the veloctiy readings are true velocities.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

[quote="gjw
I have a friend who handloads and his "pet" pheasant killer is a 3", 1 7/8oz of #4 at 1500fps out of a full choke. He claims 80yd shots all the time (truth be told ..more like 35!)
Greg[/quote]

May God have mercy on your shoulder! Crying or Very sad

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 428