16ga.com ~ View topic

Guest

Twice Barrel,

I have used 7's before (still have 4 boxes of reloads left), I hunted Kansas for a few years. They will kill pheasants, but I still want 6's when I know for sure I am just hunting roosters.

I believe you are just bragging right now, because you have a nice choice of gamebirds to hunt. Showoff.

Yes that means I am jealous!! Wink

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

Well, Mike, be sure you are sitting down for this.......as I'll allow you are right on both counts.

First off, my "fairly conclusive" comment was an over-endorsement, pure and simple.

Not so much of Slidehammer's work actually, but of the insinuation that #9 pellets when used on something the size of a turkey at considerable yardage, as a few posters here have been recently advocating, are likely insufficient.

And, truth is, I'll probably stick by that until someone comes along, as in the Nilo mallard studies, and starts harnessing up live, wild turkeys to be shot with 9's in order to assess mortality. Short of that happening, we seem to be stuck with the old tried and reproducable methods of a penetration box......which is more scientically reputable in my mind than sketchy, anecdotal field information. Any one of us here can handily demonstrate that 5's or 6's penetrate further for a given velocity than 9's whether we are shooting them into manila cards or jell-o, and I'd highly suggest that some of us do just that, if in doubt.......so that the writer might avoid irritating folks by having to "state the obvious".

Which leaves you 'correct' on your second point about it being "too bad that after > 100 years of shotshell development and countless millions of hours of field work we need such a statement of the obvious."

It IS "too bad"......I'd even say 'sad' - especially for some turkeys - but even worse is the fact that a few here are still encouraging members to accept this small shot/high velocity dogma as gospel...... to the point where others, like Slidehammer, apparently feel compelled to re-"state the obvious", again and again if necessary, in the interests of hunter ethics & conservation.

Might I ask, what level of scientific assessment do you personally feel would be necessary to condemn the use of #9 lead pellets on turkeys taken out to 40 yards? And I ask that of you with all sincerity.

Respectfully,

Rob Harris

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Joined: 12 Oct 2008 Posts: 50 Location: New Jersey

Excellent post!

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

Fair enough, Mike. And I'm going to join you on the 'bench'....., as I've also said all I needed to say on the matter. I do hope that others continue the discussion, though.

All Best,

Rob

I wish I had more time to read all the posts in this thread. I've sen some excellent points raised on both the pro and con side of the issue. I've had some practical experience with faster loads of smaller shot and also with moderate velocity loads of bigger shot. They both work in their place.

I think the reason is the footprint of the pellet and how the energy it carries is delivered. Small pellets at high speeds tend to flatten out at closer ranges inside 30 yards. In so doing, they deliver their energy in a very quick and disruptive way. They flatten out quite quickly as they penetrate like a high velocity bulllet would and deliver a shocking blow as well as create a bigger wound canal through vital tissue. However, smaller pellets lose their velocity and their hitting power faster than big pellets do.

Bigger pellets already have a bigger footprint and disrupt tissue better by their bigger diameter. they are heavier and penetrate better because they retain their energy further out. #5 and #4 shot will dump roosters out at 40 yards and beyond better than any pellet size I've ever used.

I think there is a time and place for both load types. They are simply tools after all. How they are used is up to us.

Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 728

I believe this is one instance where the Massachusetts Wildlife Dept got it right...it is illegal to shoot a turkey in Massachusetts with anything but size 4-6 shot. Connecticut allows size 4 - 7-1/2. I personally use 5s or 6s on turkeys and have had to take a second shot only once in 10 birds. I shot the wounded bird at 30 yards and an extreme angle to my right (I am right handed) so I assume my sight picture was off and he wasn't centered in the pattern. The bird went down for 10 seconds then got up when I did and started staggering away when I put another round in him.

This is a great thread. There is simply no substitute for patterning your own pet loads, and these penetration tests are another valuable tool. Thanks.

Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 728

I purchased a box of 10 Remington's 3" 2oz turkey loads with #5 shot once and actually fired three of them through an 870 Express at turkeys! The first two shots I took were from a standing position and although extremely LOUD Shocked

did not seem too bad at the time because I killed my first two turkeys with them. I then fired one of these rounds at a tom that took about 1-1/2 hours to come in (although he gobbled from about 100 yards away the whole time). This time I was sitting up against a tree and vowed then to never again to use such a silly load again. The noise is ridiculous and the reocil is heavy enough to make it difficult to hold onto the gun for a follow up shot if you needed it. I have been trying to give away the other 7 rounds of this ammo ever since (which is now 12 years old) because I have found that my 3" #6 high density 1-3/8oz waterfowl loads kill 'em just as dead and I have plenty! Laughing

Joined: 20 Mar 2009 Posts: 428

I'll take my #5's to the Turkey hunt Very Happy

I know of one fellow who incidently killed a full grown hen in the fall season during a timberdoodle hunt. He offed the bird with a 28 ga bird gun and a 3/4 ounce load of #8 shot to the noggin at less than 20 yards. The bird went down on the spot like it had been decapitated. Thinking it over, that bird essentially was decapitated. The head looked like it had been beaten with a cheese grater.

Guest

Slidehammer,

The reason I wondered, was for a comparison between the 3/4 oz. #6 load at 1200 FPS and a 1 1/8 oz. load of # 6's at a similar velocity. I was just looking for pellet count in the turkey

It is interesting that the #5's pattern better in your shotgun than #6's in that load. I had to really work to find a load that would work better with #5's than #6's in my favorite shotgun.

Guest

Slide,

I am not sure you realize this but I am not much for velocities over 1300, none of my hunting loads are even at the 1,300 FPS mark.

That one load I have with the DR16 wad is at 1400+ FPS or so, but I was just looking for a MAX load when I sent it to the ballistics lab, then after I know where MAX is I can work down from there.

I do like my target loads at 1300 or so, not because I am looking for high velocity, just the velocity that works best for me.