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We could not have been more pleased with the operation of our penetration box using the manila cards. The "box" is capable of measuring shot penetration over almost a three feet length with 7's and even over 15 inches with 9's! Installing double cards in the first eight slots allowed us to continue testing accurately up to a #5 pellet. This procedure allowed us to "measure" very small differences both in shot size and velocity changes.

As I compiled these last two charts I also realized what a good tool they are for reference! At a glance one can compare penetration between shot sizes. One can also see what starting your shot at a full 1500fps will buy you downrange at 40 yards. Basically ONE CARD! Each shot size increase out-penetrated the results of the prior smaller shot pellets... This greater penetration results with the next bigger pellet happened regardless of whether the smaller shot was a 1200 start or a 1500 start! There is a clear message here, seemingly forgotten by some, although it has been in print now for over a century!

While the charts are averaged from a minimum of three shots for data it is accurate. ALL loads tested were weighed, both powder and shot. The shot was inspected and sometimes measured for uniformity. The wad was the same regardless of velocity except for the "Conventional" 1 1/8oz loads. An added benefit of our penetration box is that it recovers all the pellets from the test! Shot deformation during this testing was nil. Polished more than deformed was the norm! Very few damaged pellets from firing were found in this pattern core sampling used for our test. Recovered wads were examined when we saw them hit the ground after firing. 1500fps loads damaged the shotcup floor and lower petal walls much more than similar 1200fps samples recovered.

Shot penetration was remarkably uniform shot to shot with the same load combination... being the same more times than not!

3/4oz loads were needed to reach 1500fps at pressures I will use in shotshells and they were HIGH pressures. 3/4oz of #9 shot has a pellet count of 438 pellets IF a reasonable even sizing is used. (#9 shot sizing can run from 8 to 10 1/2 in some brands!) If we use the 438 pellet count as fairly accurate, then what weight of shot charge will give comparable pellet count with larger sizes???

9 = 3/4oz = 438 pellets............

8 1/2 = 0.9oz (slightly over 7/8oz = 438 pellets

8 = 1 1/16oz = 438 pellets

7 1/2 = 1 1/4oz = 438 pellets

7 = 1.458oz = 438 pellets

6 = 1 15/16oz = 438 pellets

5 = 2.575oz = 438 pellets

Pattern saturation could be similar if like pellet count is used... in general terms only, as all loads need to be tested for true performance.

But is pellet count all there is to it in this comparison? NO! Each time the pellet becomes larger you gain in energy for a similar load! The second chart looks at per pellet energy at 40 yard impacts... Again this is quite an eye opener! Look at the shot sizes that have the recommended 1.5 ft.lb. per pellet for the smaller birds and 2.0 ft. lbs. for bigger, tougher stuff from wild pheasant up.

I have "throttled" my opinion to where my tongue bleeds. "Data" was my goal. I feel this summary tells what is needed. I was accused of "generalizing" early on.. To see data with a repeatable pattern is seeing "physics" at work! Physics doesn't generalize! Humans do. We all have perception, and we let it "blind" us more times than not! Perception is powerful though. If we perceive a certain "load" is better, then we will probably do better, shoot better, with that load. The laws of physics and ballistics could call you wrong and be right! Right after my being accused of "generalizing", then bunker trap shooters liking high velocity loads was mentioned for a counter offer!... "Liking" is perception! Where is their reams of data showing and comparing the fast load of choice to a slower load of quality sans just opinion at work? Yep there is None, with a capital "N"! Taking an expert's opinion on what to use is no guarantee you are using the best choice.

Sometimes a long held opinion can be proven by data. The most pleasing thing for me in ALL this testing was the data concerning #7 shot.

Please let me make a point by allowing me to perceive, speculate, and have an opinion first, then look at this summary second! Many, even most here relate what is a good load to them by field experience. Maybe they shoot one bird with good results.... Is that enough? Not hardly! Maybe they have shot 50 pheasants with a particular load..... Is this proof? Nope! A sporting clays shooter or a dove hunter has tested his "favorite" load for 300 shots and it's the best! ... Is it?
Bottomline..... when the human element is involved, along with perception and opinion which is always there; thousands of smokeballs or kills are needed before physics/ballistics accepts your thoughts as maybe having some fact!
This happened to us with number seven shot! I have shot a good number of Chukars and Huns with 7's and like it for that! I have tested 7's on measured 60 yard clays and found it the most consistent "breaker" of clay targets at those extreme ranges. (60 yard shots some clays courses seem to have these days...)

It seems Montana cattleman have an abundance of feral pigeons around their feed lots. I have killed hundreds of them with 6's, 7's, 7 1/2's, even 9's........ My buddy in Billings has killed thousands....... Several of us have been reloading West Coast Magnum 7's as our load of choice... Why? We pass shoot at times when the opportunity presents itself. At 40 yards and beyond, we noticed our 7 1/2's were failing.... some birds hard hit .. flew on, some dropped 1/4 mile later.... 6's are dynamite on pigeons too in 1 1/8oz doses at long range! But we are older these days... Several hundred rounds of 1 1/8oz without a break will give me a gun headache where 15/16oz of #7 will not. This load works great on pigeons; the best in our opinions over thousands of "applications"! Now look at the summary charts.....

Steel shot, even to say it, leaves a bad taste in my mouth! I have decided to not continue my testing to include it. I won't shoot it. This testing is easy to duplicate, so anyone can develop their own data with steel or another avenue of choice. My knowledge of physics and ballistics has me satisfied how steel will suffice......

Study the attached charts a while.... They will give you information without bias. Information based on real tests instead of opinion flavored with perception....

Slidehammer

Guest

Great work. It sure validates my shell selections which I had made intuitively.

Guest

Wow! Excellent work and synopsis, Slidehammer!

One quick comment. I've not used West Coast 7's, but all of the 7's I've bought (Lawrence Magnum, BP nickle) have actually been 6 1/2 in size. You might want to take a look see at those West Coast 7's for their true size. Not doubting your data, just adding a condsideration.

It would be interesting to see if there is any difference in nickle plated shot. There are lot's of claims out there regarding NP's "superior penetration." Maybe you can shed some light on that one while you're at it.

Thanks for sharing your data.

Slidehammer,

I rarely save stuff from forums like this but your recent posts are an exception. Reminds me of the posts on spreader loads by Mike Campbell. Takes some time and effort but we all are benefited. This should get wider distribution. A magazine article in a gun mag would be an excellent next step.

As Mr. Campbell stated so well last year:

"In God we trust....all others bring data"

Jeff

Guest

I had purchased a few bags of Remington Magnum #7's awhile back, they measured like a true 7 - .100". They were only 5% antimony, but they pattern well and kill roosters and quail just fine.

The only negative were they were a bit out of round, but that didn't seem to hurt patterns very much.

Not sure if they are still available, I hope they are as I am getting a bit low.

Guest

I really like West Coast shot. I have not found any shot that is more uniform.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Nicely done! Thank you.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Slidehammer,

I must compliment you on the care and thoroughness of your work. I especially liked the insights on no. 7 shot.

I might offer one thought: It may be the case that card penetration is more reflective of pellet linear momentum (P = mv) than pellet kinetic energy (E = 1/2 mv^2). Many studies have suggested that downrange energy is a greater predictor of lethality than momentum, so your findings might possibly be understating the practical value of velocity...or not, because penetration is a major consideration with our quarry's defense: feathers, which might be efficient energy absorbers and dissipators.

In any event, there is much value in understanding downrange penetration effects, on which you have admirably enlightened us.

Brewster

Guest

Hi Slide,

Nice Job!

Just wondering where you got the figures for foot pounds of energy at 40 yards?They are a bit higher than the Lyman manual or the Lowry charts state.

I am not looking for an argument, just want to understand stuff a little better.

Guest

Sorry, Slide, I mispoke, the Lyman manual charts match your figures.

The Lowry charts state lower energy figures. I believed (without looking) that Lyman got their info from Lowry.

Since there is no way to ever figure out which set of charts are correct, with our limited testing equipment. I will stop right here.

Don't be so quick to give up on finding actual velocity and energies at a 40 or any range for that matter Mark , the folks I visit with tell me otherwise and perhaps in the not so distant future we shall find out .

Regards Charles

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 52

I don't know if anyone is paying attention to this, but it seems to me that Slidehammer's data focuses on shot sizes typically used for head-shooting turkeys, e.g. 5's, 6's, possibly 7's and 7-1/2's..... and then those smaller 8's through 9's. I don't read anywhere where he's made a recommendation for any one size (except for preferring 7's when shooting feral pigeons). Sizes 4's or 2's were not tested, I'm assuming, because the density can start to deteriorate downrange for turkey head shots in most any gauge confined to 2-3/4".

For me, turkey loads would seem to require a balance between adequate downrange pattern density AND realistic long-yardage energy per pellet to cover the vagaries of how shot actually lands on something as small as a turkey's head/neck at 40 yards from shot-to-shot.

From the turkey profile pictures posted in his earlier thread 'Hallucinating on High Vel'...., one can see that it is a randomly different dispersal each time, sometimes striking more vital areas on the profile than at other times. Because of that, I would think pellets that have some individual long yardage 'smack' to them preferable, rather than hoping that 3/4 oz. of 9's pushed to 1500 fps can reliably deliver enough of them on target to accumulatively do the job every time.

Maybe it's time to spend an afternoon at the pattern plate to see whether 9's pushed at ultra-high speeds give one the confidence at say, 40yards........as the poster did.

Rob Harris