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*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total*

Like I said originally Slide Barrel, I appreciate your efforts and am not mocking them. I am mocking your apparent self-important, haughty, and POed attitude toward my simple suggestion to use a well soaked wet media if you intend to equate the results with what will happen when a game bird is taken with lead shot.

I am questioning your conclusion that lead pellets tend to remain round and don't flatten out when penetrating a bird carcass. The results run counter my own field observations gathered from cleaning many bird carcasses taken with lead shot. I've actually picked too many somewhat flattened and misshapen shot pellets out of too many dead game birds to accept your thinking that lead shot does not flatten out to some degree when penertating a bird. It most certainly does. I believe the enlarged frontal area of a somewhat flattened pellet will disrupt more vital tissue and will impart more shock while doing it better than the smooth surface of a round pellet. I also believe that higher impact velocities cause lead pellets to flatten out more, which amplifies the tissue disruption and the resulting shock.

I've witnessed too many birds being hit with high velocity loads of relatively small pellets to discard them as ineffective. If used correctly, they kill birds very quickly and cleanly. On the other hand, I've learned that trying to take birds with the same loads at longer velocities results in crippled and lost birds. Once the velocity falls below a certain threshold, the pellets will not flatten out much and the effect is lost. At this point, bigger pellets carrying more kinetic energy do a much better job of taking gamebirds.

I've actually used both small pellets at high velocities and bigger pellets at more moderate velocities to cleanly kill birds. If used properly, both types of loads work very well. Each type is a tool. Using each tool properly will give good results. I don't see this as a contradiction. I'm a pragmatist. I'm not for or against either type of load. I like them both in their place. Simple. To me, it is the results that matter.

I think you made a simple but important mistake in setting up your experiment. My suggestion is to repeat your tests using well soaked media with a volumetric fluid content which closely resembles that of of a bird carcass. Then check the results against your initial findings. Valid procedures produce valid results which amounts to sound scientific research and not BS. Good luck.

Guest

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

I don't believe that TB. Water does not compress. The effects and results will almost certainly be significantly different when using a wet media. This is why ballasticians rely on ballistic gel to observe the effects of a projectile.

Penetration is important, but so is the effect of the surface texture and the frontal area of the pellet has it penatrates the media. The inertia and energy of the pellet at the time of impact is important as well, so velocity and range automatically come into the matter. It is all relative. Disregarding any of these factors will result in overly simplistic and inaccurate conclusions.

One more point is being overlooked here. Wet or dry media cannot die. It is already dead. So we can't observe how quickly and cleanly either type of load kills. The only way to learn is to do it. I suggest folks learn to use both types of loads to their own best advantage. This way, they won't have to take anyone's word or opinion for it.

All I ask is for anyone to apply some simple common sense, and keep in mind that any hunted animal deserves a quick clean death. Stretching things out too far to prove a point is not being a good hunter and sportsman. Use the tools correctly and in good conscience. Thanks.

Guest

Joined: 25 Jun 2006 Posts: 79 Location: SE Pa

Slidehammer, great info, though I am not surprised by it at all. I love the American #7 shot. I use it on prairie birds and ruffed grouse. I prefer larger sized pellets and fewer of them as long as the density is good. Also, with larger pellets, in addition to the increased penetration and knock down power, they are more apt to fully penetrate the tissue/meat and thus leave you less birdshot to spit out while you are enjoying your harvest.
Thanks for taking the time to do this testing.

.....Don't argue with Slidehammer or I'll sick Toney on you Very Happy

![/quote]

Oh please, God no!! Anything but that. Very Happy

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Guest

Mike I agree in general and in practice with what you are saying but again you are comparing shot with two different properties and the only thing they really have in common is the diameter of the shot. In a head to head comparison I'm not sure which will have the greatest penetration the #7 steel with its hard non deformed sphere or a #7 lead with its higher density and increased retained energy. But that is not really the question. In order to get a valid comparison you must control the variables in Slidehammers case the variable was shot size in your case it is density and malleability. Its difficult to isolate the cause and effect when you are working with more than one variable.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Available data (Thompson, Oberfell, [/i]et.al.) suggests that pellet deformation if a result of pellet impact with bone rather that the result of tissue contact.
In Mike's example he indicated that the flattened pellets "snapped the spine" before ending up "under the skin".

It seems to me that much of the 'data' available is of little practical use to the average shotgunner. Generally, if the shot cloud insersects with the flight path of the bird................ Wink

In short I suspect good shotgun pointing is a more germane issue than any other...it seems to be for me at any rate.

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Guest

I can't keep up. Shocked

Let me know when you're done with this and what you come up with. Cool

I'll be out cleaning the garage.

I've got dibs on any gold boullion you might find. Very Happy