16ga.com ~ View topic

At one of our local clubs , there were available maybe 2000 of the old gems . I have them now . What I've been doing is cutting out the middle post and using a 20 ga fiber wad to get the right length . I can get about 7/8 oz minimum , but I'm kinda out there as to loads due to the thick plastic and design of these wads. Anyone had any experience with these ? I generally use feds cut to 29/16 cause I have several short m-12s . I only need target velocity . Cheers (this is my 1st post)

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

deer hunter,
Before you go cutting them up, it sounds like you've got some kind of integral spreader post, I'll bet some here would be VERY happy to trade/swap some suitable wads for your requirements..

Me for one. I've got lots of the Gualandi 1618 & 1621 which work very well in
2 9/16" hulls. You want a 1200fps 7/8oz load?
Post some pics if you can.
Cheers,
R*2

Herters had two size wads I belive they were called Vandalese or something like that. They were made for 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. lead. It has been a while since I loaded the ones I have. I use them with old hulls made by alcan with a head stamp of S&W on them. The hulls were red and blue ribbed with very hard paper base wads. They were similar enough to load as a federal 16ga. It worked for me anyway.
Best,
Ron

These wads are definately not spreaders - these are the long range wads with 2 slits and the cushion section is the post . They are different also because the powder cup is a 2 cup type arrangement as opposed to a AA type single cup . I'm simply making a proper length cushion to fit the load by taking out the post - tests so far seem to be ok , just don't know how good or bad .

I have about 250-300 30 year +) old Herter's wads. I bought them for a give away price at Kittery Trading Post about 5 or 6 years ago. They have a single shot cup with a pair of slits instead of the usual 4 or more. They also offer the largest shot cup capacity of any 16 gauge wad I've ever used. The shot cups hold a full 1-1/4 ounce of #4 shot better than the SP16 or the WW16AA wad.

I believe these old wads were originally designed for use with one of Herter's proprietary hulls which was probably an Alcan product with a fiber base wad. The wads fit a Federal, Fiocchi, or Cheddite hull almost perfectly with a nice slip in fit which should not allow any powder migration with the average flake or disc powders.

I've never found any data for these old Herter's wads in any presently available hull. I doubt any of the old Herter's hulls would be available or even usable by now anyway. Same for Alcan hulls.

I have successfully worked up a safe 1-1/4 ounce, moderate velocity load in a Fiocchi hull using a reduced charge of Blue Dot. My load crimps perfectly and firmly without any need to modify the wad. It is not a high velocity load. However, the big #4 pellets still hit hard and kill pheasant cleanly out past 40 yards without having to be pushed by high velocities anyway. My load also patterns better than any other heavy duty 16 ga load I've tried, so it is now my go to heavy load.

If anyone is lucky enough to find a stash of these big old Herter's wads for a reasonable price, I'd advise buying them. They've proven to be very useful for a specific application, and do the job very well if used wisely and carefully.

Member Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 665 Location: Louisiana

Just a minor footnote gg.(and not to be divisive Wink

)

I have, in addition to some of those Herter's (Vandalee, Vandalia?) wads, a supply of Alcan hulls, both plastic and paper, along with Alcan wads, (fiber, card and the plastic Alcan Kwik-Sert and H-wads), G57f and Alcan 220 Max-fire primers as well as reloading data from Alcan. All in good condition. I use them infrequently for 'special' projects.
I've been reloading for a long, long time. Wink

In the years gone by I have collected a few thousand Vandalee wads in the 1 and 1 1/8 oz. sizes. The old herters book which listed PB, 540, and 4756 powder with the older hulls ie, win. western, New Peters, and Remington works as a good starting point for the federal and old alcan hulls. Since I have a couple thousand of the old red rib and blue rib hulls it is fun to put a few together for practice. The red and blue hulls are new and primed so I use only the lightest loads just to be safe. They do pattern tight but the clays don't seem to mind. At trap I can break a bird from the 20yd. line to where it is almost ready to bounce. This has happened when I fail to take the safety off--curse those auto safetys on some of the Beretta 16ga SxSs. Rolling Eyes

The 16ga is fun and I'm lovin it.
Ron

Thanks for these add ons - I seem to have a knack for things beyond old . I just went up for a positive id on the box and under my load log is 5/8 x 11/8 oz so I do have the big capacity . Oh if only they were the 1ozer's but these'll do .I still have some unfired activs , so I think these will end up 1oz loads with unique , if I can get it . Any pistol use powder has become hard to come by here . I may be able to use these in 1oz in my short feds - one of the loads I tried and works well is the big rem 11/8 wads in the short shell with unique so we''l see .

I went down to the basement to drag one of these old Herter's wads out of my stash in my own "special project secret compartment". :Its' the one where I also keep my official "Space Cadet Decoder Ring." Very Happy

.

I think I see what Deerhunter is referring to by "double cup". The wad base has an extra sealing or obturation ring inside the base cup lips. The wad also has a support disc half way up the central stem between the base and th shot cup. it is similar to the one used in the Remington Figure 8 target type target wads. I also rechecked the shot cup depth and capacity against the SP16 and the new Claybuster WW16AA clones. Yup. It is still the roomiest.

Herter's was known for going over the top a bit with some of their advertizing rhetoric. What ever they offered was faster, more powerful, more accurate, prettier, and more sure to get you admired and envied by all your friends. Rolling Eyes

They also did a lot of jazzing up their creations with a lot of rather questionable "improvements." Hence the double seal on the base cup. I rather doubt it really does much of anthing besides flapping uselessly and going along for the ride(kinda like Prince Charlie's ears). But that double seal would look impressive to the gullible--again, like Prince Charlie's ears. Very Happy

.

My friends and I used to do a lot of chuckling when reading the old Herter's catalogs. However, this old wad has proven to be a pretty useful one for heavy 16 ga loads.

Gee, I guess I can feel the envy dripping off the rest of you guys right through my monitor screen. Very Happy

16gg - If it wasn't for all those secret places , we would never have some else re-discover these gems and throw them out ! Once I can get some powder to play with , I'll be trying these in short feds and one oz . I'm pretty sure they'll adapt as sp16's work quite nicely - mainly 18grs unique . They'll probably be tighter than heck with that thick plastic , but we'll see .I think I have a couple pounds of bismuth left , so that's another possibility . I'm a great believer in light loads , so my main thrust is with Charles' new wad and the 2025's with 3/4 due to an eye quirk , but every so often you need a little heavy metal !

I should have gotten back to you with a follow up comment on wad fit. If your wads are similar to mine, then the wads should not be a tight fit in the Federal hull. the ones I have are a mere scoash bigger than the CB-WW16AA clones and a tad bigger than the SP16. It is a slip fit once past the crimp folds without any wad pressure needed to seat it firmly on the powder. These old wads are not nearly as big around as the Gualandi, Cheddite, or B&P Z wads. I think you will find them to be just about perfect in the Federal hull (which has basically remained to be the same as the original Alcan polyformed plastic hull design w/rolled paper base wad from the mid-1960's).

16gg - that was a slip of the lip when I said tight - I meant how the pattern might be with those thick walls and only 2 slots- the case fit will be fine !

I've tried them as is and with an additional pair of slits to split the two shot cup petals into four. I've not observed any real difference in the patterns. I suspect the shot column is pushing these petals open well before the whole shebang leaves the muzzle. Air resistance does the rest in stripping the plastic wad from the shot swarm. Once the wad has been cleanly stripped from the shot column, it has not further effect.

One note here. I have found that a 16 gauge improved modified choke constriction patterns better than a full choke when a full 1-1/4 ounce of #4 shot is used. 1-1/4 ounce of #5 shot will also pattern marginally better out of the more open choke, but the pattern difference is not as noticable. Full choke constrictions do better with #6 or smaller shot sizes in the 16.

I think it has to do with how well the bigger pellets flow through the average 16 gauge bore and choke constriction of a before exiting the muzzle. #4 shot is about the biggest shot size that patterns reasonably well from a 16 gauge. So full chokes tend to overconstrict a shot column of #4 shot and will open the pattern a bit instead of tightening it up. This effect is less noticable with #5 shot.

The relationship between shot size and bore size is why the 20 gauge is far less effective with shot sizes bigger than #6. This is why the 16 will always be a better subgauge upland gun choice for bigger upland birds like pheasant. It handles the two bigger commonly used pheasant shot sizes far better. Since the 16 is also more ballisticly efficient than the 20, it is always the wiser choice between guns of equal weight and handling qualities.

As shot sizes decrease and the bore size increases, the shot column will tolerate increased constriction. This is why overchoking a gun works well with fine shot sizes and not at all with bigger shot. Card shooters understand this phenomenon and capitalize on it by using long tapered extra tight constictions to obtain super tight patterns with #9 shot out of their 12 gauge competition barrels. Their experimentations and developements have also led to better turkey gun chokes. However, super tight 12 gauge turkey chokes are designed for #6 shot, and don't work nearly as well with bigger shot sizes. If #4 or 5 shot is used for turkey hunting, a standard 12 gauge full hunting choke is probably a better choice.

well , finally got some unique to play with - loaded up a couple 2 9/16 feds with these , 17 grs. with 440 grs shot . Loaded great with no wad adjustment and crimped great . The only patterning avail was a crow with a report double squirrel and got 2 x's on the card . Shot the old 2 shot m-12 as I like it well and it is the most affordable to screw up should it happen .No sign of pressure (this gun will make the brass hard to resize). This load is probably on the chicken s--t side , but my original load is 18 grs. with a rem wad which also fits great and has accounted for many dead things . Both the rem and herter fit 2 9/16 feds nicely if that's the only components you have . Neither of these have been officially pressure tested .