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Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

Slide,

I guess I am at a loss for what I am supposed to be proving to you.

I did pattern test a few new loads on Saturday.

They patterned tighter than I thought they would with .015 at 30 yards. But I will show them to you. patterned 3 of each of the 3 loads I checked.

3/4, 7/8, & 1 oz of #6 shot.

I have all the numbers.

I don't know what I am supposed to do with a 50 yard load. I probably would have to use .030 or so and .015 is already too tight at 30 yards, as the 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads on a 3 shot average were 95%+ with the velocity around 1400 FPS(I chronographed too) so a 100 % 50 yard load is about useless to me as this thread has become.

Stop mixing and matching to your advantage, be straight, if you can't be straight, start the stupid stuff with someone else. I haven't been anything but straight up with you. Since when have I asked you for a witness? Never, always took what you said at face value PERIOD.

You need to take up the 50 yard loads with the fellows that are shooting that far.

Our debate and correct me if I am wrong is over whether a pattern should be perfectly even over a 30" circle or if a 20" or so core is the way to go. This has nothing to do with 50 yard patterns. I have never claimed 50 yard anything. I did not pattern nor will I waste my time patterning to prove something to you. I pattern to be sure I know what I have. I will offer the patterns on here but I did not and will not go out of my way to make special useless loads to prove my point. I don't have to.

If I do pattern that 3/4 oz load at 50 yards you aren't gonna like it, if I can get 97.3% average of 3 patterns at 30 yards with .015 do you suppose it will be that hard to get a decent 50 yard pattern? You are getting into an area where you have been before. To be honest I have never patterned anything lighter than 1 oz in my 16 before, it is new to me also. But it is hardly a surprise, I have seen this with lighter target loads in the 12 gauge you actually have to back off on the choke with the lighter loads.

So tell me is this Slidehammer or am I yippin at Vero again? Like I was the last time. If so don't waste my time.

It is also apparent that you don't like Nick Hammack, or the fact that I get along with Nick. I didn't know that I needed permission from you to chose my friends. Nick's a good man, I get along with him, because he is straight up with me. He and I don't agree on every point about these light loads, but we each know that what the other guy says works for him.

This is all about 12 gauge loads, so I suppose none of the information here is relevant.

When I first was shooting International skeet in 1980, the specs called for 32 gram (1 1/8 oz) shot limit. Most factory loads were either #8 shot or #9 shot. I had no confidence in the 9 shot on the harder International targets. I wanted 8 1/2 shot loads.

So I set up my own pattern test frame, with a roll of butcher paper, crank handle, and a 16 year old kid with a magic marker ( he was trying to earn gas money for his off-road motorcycle). I would shoot a pattern at 21 yards (skeet range) and Joe would walk over, mark the pattern with whatever I told him, draw a separation line and crank a new sheet into place. I would shoot another pattern, etc.

Then it was into the shop to draw circles around the pattern using 20 and 30 inch clear plastic templates, draw the dividing straight lines to cut the circles into roughly equal areas, and count holes.

I found the best combination to be the Federal paper Champion, their 12C1 wad and 20 gr 700X.

The rules changed to 28 grams ( 1 oz) of shot. I was concerned that I would have to start the whole re-patterning process over. There were not many 1 oz wads for the straight-walled Federal paper case at that time, so I used my old load with a 20 ga insert in the shotcup and reduced the powder to 18.5 grains.

To my amazement, the count of pellets in the 20 in circle was essentially the same as with the 1 1/8 oz load. The number of shot in the outer ring decreased slightly, but not by the 12% implied by the pellet reduction in the load. So I went with the same gun (no choke) and the aforementioned load. I started shooting better scores, but I changed guns shortly after the change in specs. However, I had my screw-in chokes honed to match the bore size of my new gun - essentially cylinder bore. I must point out that most screw-in choke arrangements relieve the shotgun bore where the bottom of the choke seats. This results in a slight "jug" choke which may cause patterns to tighten up some.

Then the shot limit was reduced to 24 grams ( 7/8 oz). There was much consternation in the International skeet community that they would have to start shooting with IC or tighter chokes. I shot 3 patterns with a 7/8 oz load. The pellet count in the center 20 inch circle was about the same.

***** I didn't care about the outer ring, because by that tine I figured out if I had the gun pointing in the right place, the target would break no matter what the outer ring count was. *****

The moral of this story is --- spend the time learning how to break targets rather than counting holes in paper. This translates to more fun and a higher success in hunting.

Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

Slidehammer,

Topcat has just explained exactly what I am talking about.

One of the problems with me is I am not an English major by any stretch and I am not going into the whole subject writing about patterns as is it not a one paragraph item.

The basic "working"" part of the pattern is anywhere from 18" to 22 or possibly 23". There isn't enough pellets especially in a 1 or 1 1/8 or even 1 1/4 oz. load of 7's and larger pellets to properly fill an entire 30" circle on top of the fact that shotshells and shotguns don't work that way. There has always been that working core. Now if you want to play around and get even pellet coverage, that is up to you, but you are creating special loads to do that. You make it sound like your patterns are the norm and mine are from left field. It is the other way around. If you are happy with your loads, that is fine, but you even admitted that your patterns aren't perfectly even. ( 1 pellet in the core to one pellet in the annullar ring ). I know that you simply aren't using card, fiber and shot wrappers an instantly getting these so called perfect patterns. NO WAY, you are doing a fair amount of work with loads and chokes to refine them, I am not diminishing the work that you are doing. I am questioning weakening the pellet count in the 20" or so core to accomplish your goal.

I want a nice symetrical core, because I know that is the part of the pattern that is important that outer ring always was and always will be the golden BB territory. I want every bird or target that I properly point. I am not looking for lucky shots.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Actually to keep in direct proportion it's a 21 " circle. Full at 40 yards. Modified at 35 yards. Improved cylinder at 30 yards, Cylinder at 25 yards. This is where you're supposed to get your 70 percent. Of coarse then you can throw in skeet 1 and skeet 2, which were actually design for the old fiber wads. Then of coarse lets throw in improved modified to make it interesting. Then after you've drwn your 21" circle, cut out a piece of cardbord five inches in diameter and lay this on your pattern looking for open spots in the pattern This is about the size of a bird. Having fun yet?

Joined: 06 Aug 2009 Posts: 960

I moved the patterns to a new thread.