16ga.com ~ View topic - 16 ga. SxS with Laminated Steel (Twist?) Barrels

I know some of you shoot guns with Damascus barrels. I'm curious to know if anyone shoots a gun with laminated steel (twist?) barrels and if laminated steel (twist?) barrels are inherently less strong.

My friend has a 16 ga. Pieper Arms sxs Hammer gun for sale. It has Modified Diana stamped on the right barrel and Laminated Steel and Belgium on the left barrel. Number 062xx on the frame and barrels. Also number 143 on barrels and frame. There is a diamond with 16 over a "C" stamp that I'm told means 16 ga. choked and was used from 1898 to 1924.

It appears to be in good condition with no pitting in the bores. Good finish, no rust on the barrels and there is a still a little color on the side plates. Tight lock up and the barrels ring like church barrels. Some dings on the wood but no cracks and the checkering is sharp.

A description of the Pieper Modified Diana in the 1907 Sears catalog stated that the gun is " especially adapted to nitro or smokeless powder." A Notice in the 1907 Sears catalog, stated that, "Every gun we offer for sale...is made to stand any proper load of nitro or black powder."

I haven't checked to see if it is there, but I've also been told there would be a lion over PV stamp if the gun has been proofed for nitro or smokeless powder.

Based on the statements in the 1907 Sears catalog, and assuming the lion over PV stamp is there, and if the barrel wall thickness is within the acceptable range (no pitting) can I reasonably assume it would be safe to shoot using low pressure 2-1/2 RST shells?

I realize value is in the eyes of the beholder and is dictated by what a buyer wants to pay and the seller is willing to accept. That said, what would one expect to pay for an early 1900's 16 ga. Pieper sxs hammer gun with laminated steel barrels in good condition?

You MUST measure the barrels for thickness and modifications.
Bores honed? Chambers recut?
Thanks
Mike

I think the bore ID in mm when it was made should be stamped somewhere on the barrels. I assume it has 2-9/16" chambers. Will the chamber ID be stamped as well?

I have a 10" Skeets Bore gage and a digital micrometer to measure OD. I can measure the bore ID up to 10 " from each end of the barrels. Is that good enough to measure the wall thickness?

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1394 Location: Denver, Colorado

Laminated steel could be even stronger than Damascus, depending on the quality of the steel being used. British laminated steel was developed right at the end of their use of braided barrels and was a slight upcharge, if I remember correctly. I would assume that the folks in Liege followed after the British model (?). With any old gun, condition and then wall-thickness is critical. If it's not badly corroded or it hasn't been honed out excessively (to remove pits) it could be quite fine. Henri Pieper made some really nice guns. If he ever put his name on a clunker, I've yet to see it.

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

Barkey,

If the barrel wall thickness is good, I believe .030" is the usual standard, go for it.
I have a Pieper in 12ga that is unfortunately too pitted to be safe. I've toyed with the idea of lining it with aluminum tube and making it a 20ga. Good quality gun that deserves resurrecting.

It may or may not be stamped with a 65, the chamber length. Be aware that the bore may not be concentric to the walls, simply measuring ID and OD may not tell the full story. Dave Manson sells a barrel wall thickness gauge; page 21,

http://www.mansonreamers.com/Current%20catalog/May%202013%20Catalog.pdf

If you've invested in a Skeets Bore Gauge, this at a $100 will guarantee you know what you've got.

If the gun checks out, I'd say $500 would be a real buy, northwards of that depends on how much you want it. Sounds like it's in very good condition for its age.

Good luck!
R*2

Ps. I've got no problems shooting twist or Damascus guns with standard loads if the bores check out, it's actually really hard to blow barrels up. And with all the data available it's ez to get all kinds of performance at <7500psi.

Everyone, Thanks for your inputs. It is among a number of guns from an estate my friend is selling on consignment for the family. It probably was in a safe for many years. Original asking price is $650 but seller said he might let it go for $600. I need to examine it a little closer before making an offer.

R*2, Thanks for the Manson wall thickness gauge recommendation.

Rrusse11

One of my Baker guns has a split in the barrel, so I fitted 28 gauge Briley tubes Very Happy

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 596 Location: 17603

Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion. Being terminally frugal, and an inveterate tinkerer, I've been thinking of doing it myself. I've got a pair of aluminum tubes, 3/4"x1/16" wall and a pair of 12 to 20 ga chamber adapters.

When I get rountuit my plan is to get the pitted barrels honed out to .750" and glue the tubes in. Ditto the chamber adapters. Run my forcing cone reamer thru the chamber, and then off to Mike Orlen for some choke tube threading.

Should work and be 1/2 the price of Briley. The barrel honing would be the pricey bit, but would keep the balance better. The other alternative is to turn the tubes down to fit the existing bores.

Should work, the only problem is that pesky rountuit, {;o).

Cheers,
R*2

Understand, I have been CHEAP, I buy used Briley tubes when I find them
CHEAPLY, these were 30" 12 to 28 tubes and I got them for about $100 Shocked

Then I use a lathe to fit the tubes to a gun.

Mike

Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 696 Location: WA/AK

I don't happen to have a Twist barrel gun that I shoot, but quite a few members over on the Parker Gun Collectors Association web site shoot their Twist barrel Parkers, both hammer guns and the later PH-Grade hammerless guns. My Grandfather picked up a second hand 1890-vintage Parker Bros. heavy 12-gauge PH-Grade in 1901. That Twist barrel Parker raised six Minnesota farm boys and was only retired from service in 1984 when my Uncle Howard who had inherited it from Grandpa quit hunting. It digested plenty of Federal Hi-Power/Western Super-X/etc. in its several lifetimes of service. Here is my Father with it at King Lake Minnesota in October 1932 --

And, here is Grandpa with it in 1948, while my Father was using a KED-Grade Remington --

Good quality Laminated steel barrels are not to be confused with the entry-level pattern barrels Twist. Back in the day, good English Laminated barrels tested every bit as good as Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel barrels in tests run by The Field. Unfortunately on those cheap Belgian imports that flooded the North American market from 1880 to WW-I the terms Twist and Laminated got interchanged indiscriminately.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1394 Location: Denver, Colorado

Stunning photography Researcher! Guns obviously run in your family too. Also, love those suits and hats.

Great family photos! In the 1948 photo, did your dad and granddad get the pheasants before or after church? Or, did they always dress up to go pheasant hunting? Laughing

Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 696 Location: WA/AK

Actually, we (I was two and a half) were all milling around my Grandparent's farm house getting ready for Grandma and Grandpa's Golden Wedding celebration, when Grandma looked out the window and saw the two roosters cross the road leading to the house and head for the woods back behind the machine shed. Too much for my Father and Grandfather to take. They grabbed their shotguns, whistled up the dog and did a pincer movement on the woods. As luck would have it a bird went each way and they each got theirs.

I don't actually remember it, but growing up I heard the story so many times it is like I do.

Normally this is what my Father looked like out Pheasant hunting --

Damascus barrel AE-Grade Remington of 1896 vintage.

Great story and great memories!

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1394 Location: Denver, Colorado

Great story to go along with the pix! What part of the world was Grandad's farm in?