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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ 16 load-over pressure!! |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:55 pm
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Topeka, Kansas
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“Even at 1343 nothing is going to blow the standard safe pressure limit is an arbitrary number This is a manufactures guide line to be safe in average condition guns. IT IS NOT A BURST PRESSURE.”
I beg to differ in two ways. First all guns are not created equal, many of us shoot old sxs gun for whom heavier pressures, even 12,576 PSI flying at 1343 fps is too much. Yes many old guns are overbuilt and can handle that, and modern guns will do ok, but the statement is too generic. Pressure limits are not arbitrary, particularly for guns that have been proofed.
Second the 1 1/4 oz weight of load flying at 1343 FPS generates approximately 32.1 lbs recoil in a 6 3/4 pound gun compared to 21.8 lbs recoil 1 1/8 oz at 1200 fps or 17lbs for 1oz at 1200 fps. That near 50% increase over 1 1/8 at 1200 FPS can have a real impact wood. |
_________________ Michael
Topeka, KS |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:03 pm
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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The thing is guys, either way I never wanted a 1346 fps load. I wanted only 1220, really I was trying to shoot larger shot at a lower velocity. The extra 1/8 oz was to help with pattern density. Safe or not, I don't what 1346 fps worth of recoil. I'll try the same load with 25 to 27 grs of Blue Dot and retest.
I don't know how to post the test data from Precision, but if someone will give me an email I will forward and it can be posted for all. |
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Posted:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:11 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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old colonel wrote: |
“Even at 1343 nothing is going to blow the standard safe pressure limit is an arbitrary number This is a manufactures guide line to be safe in average condition guns. IT IS NOT A BURST PRESSURE.”
I beg to differ in two ways. First all guns are not created equal, many of us shoot old sxs gun for whom heavier pressures, even 12,576 PSI flying at 1343 fps is too much. Yes many old guns are overbuilt and can handle that, and modern guns will do ok, but the statement is too generic. Pressure limits are not arbitrary, particularly for guns that have been proofed.
Second the 1 1/4 oz weight of load flying at 1343 FPS generates approximately 32.1 lbs recoil in a 6 3/4 pound gun compared to 21.8 lbs recoil 1 1/8 oz at 1200 fps or 17lbs for 1oz at 1200 fps. That near 50% increase over 1 1/8 at 1200 FPS can have a real impact wood.
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Another thing all the EXPERTS on here fail to recognize is there's a big difference between factory loads and reloads. Factories have access to powders we don't and can load heavy 1 1/4 oz loads to safer and more manageable pressures than we can. Alliant has over 175 commercial blends of powder they use and General Dynamics/ St Marks has over 135 commercial blends
Of course I'm sure somebody on here has a magic formula that's better than all that. |
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Posted:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:01 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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16GAwaterfowler,
We have access to Longshot, Blue Dot and Longreach. Any of these powders are perfectly capable of 1 1/4 oz. 16 gauge loads in a 2 3/4” hull. You don’t need anything more than what we have right now in the way of components.
We are also missing something.......the OP had a load tested, let’s just say the numbers are perfect.......get out the chronograph. He knows where the upper limit is. Drop the velocity to 1220 FPS like he wants and the pressure will fall under the SAAMI MAP and everyone is happy.
To all: Please stop with all this BS and hand wringing over pressure. It has always been under control using SAAMI procedures and with a little thought we as reloaders have it under control. One of the issues is in this day of digital, is that we are looking for perfection.......there is no perfection with shotshell ballistics and the more you demand it the more frustrated you will become. That peak chamber pressure point remains for a fraction of a millisecond and is very difficult to get a perfect reading on. Transducers do just an OK job of getting that reading, but that is sufficient for the application. If you want perfection you need to find another venue.
I am not trying to be a smart-a$$ or know it all, nothing of the kind. I am being perfectly honest with you and giving you good information. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:47 am
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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16GAwaterfowler,
Alliant list your preferred 1 1/8 oz load as:
Fed hull, Fed 209A, 32grains Blue dot, sp16 wad , 1 1/8 oz (nickel plated #6's for me) @ 1295 and 8600psi.
Sound right? |
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Posted:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:58 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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castnblast wrote: |
16GAwaterfowler,
Alliant list your preferred 1 1/8 oz load as:
Fed hull, Fed 209A, 32grains Blue dot, sp16 wad , 1 1/8 oz (nickel plated #6's for me) @ 1295 and 8600psi.
Sound right?
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I use
Federal 16 ga hull
Winchester 209 primer
26.5 grains Longshot
.135 nitro card
Remington Sp16 wad
1 1/8 oz lead shot
That gets me right around 1290 -1300 at 9800-10100 psi
You'll get slightly higher pressures using the Nitro card than the listed load(according to my pressure trace)so I use the reduced load.
It is a hammer load I can say that. |
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Posted:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:04 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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Quote: |
We have access to Longshot, Blue Dot and Longreach. Any of these powders are perfectly capable of 1 1/4 oz. 16 gauge loads in a 2 3/4” hull. You don’t need anything more than what we have right now in the way of components.
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Actually WW 571 or HS-7 was my go to powder if I was trying to make 1 1/4 oz loads, we didn't need that powder either I suppose. |
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Posted:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:53 am
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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how about 572 it is very versatile 1300 / 1070 / 23gns in the same components
IMR Blue Fed. 209A Rem. SP16 30.5 10,200 PSI 1,260 1.250z
or Blue Dot
these are right off the website |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:19 am
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri
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byrdog wrote: |
how about 572 it is very versatile 1300 / 1070 / 23gns in the same components
IMR Blue Fed. 209A Rem. SP16 30.5 10,200 PSI 1,260 1.250z
or Blue Dot
these are right off the website
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I really can't say as I haven't tried many of the newer Hodgdon powders. |
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Posted:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:16 am
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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Well I'm at it again. This time, right off the Alliant website:
Fed hull, Fed209A, sp16, 32gr Blue Dot, 1 1/8oz.
Precision Reloading tested five shot string average:
fps psi
1467 13,356
So what gives?
Also out of Lyman 5th:
W CF W209 SP16 26gr BD 1 1/8
fps psi
1283 11,416
Usable but faster and more pressure than listed. I just don't know why I'm getting such different results. |
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Posted:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:39 am
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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so go with 26gr BD and test that one in the Fed combo |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:37 pm
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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Why and how do you KNOW that the numbers Precision is giving you are correct and that Alliant’s numbers are incorrect.....or vice versa......how do you know that you aren’t somehow influencing the numbers with your reloading methods?
A little food for thought.......this has been going on over at SGW also.....almost every time published data is checked by Precision the numbers are higher than published by either Hodgdon or Alliant. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:20 pm
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 84
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Well, of course I really don't know if its something I am doing, but the technician did fire three factory rounds of known pressure and velocity. The results were as expected. Also, the results of my loading show a corresponding increase in velocity with pressure. So the load cell and chrono would have to be wrong for it to just be Precision's equipment.
I know I can back down on the powder, but if its something else I'm doing wrong I'd like to know. Has anybody else actually tested the Blue Dot loads on the Alliant website? |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:45 pm
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Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 34
Location: AL
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You might seriously check the crimp depth and make sure that it is 1/16th of an inch and really no more. I would simply drop the powder charge by 3 grains and retest if you are that worried about it. Crimp depth can effect pressure by as much as 2k-3k psi so again check you crimps and or drop the powder charge.
Rob. |
_________________ Keep your powder dry.
Rob |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:05 am
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Member
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Maine
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I'd like to develop a similar load, but with the cheddite 1632/1628 (not sure which one I have). Less powder migration. I could load a few up find how much powder to get to the mid 1200's, then send in for testing. Does Tom Armbrust still do pressure testing? |
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