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I very much like to shoot my Model 12 along with my SXS doubles. This past weekend it let me down though- it stopped ejecting and then eventually locked up tight! On taking it apart and cleaning, I found bits of dried grass that had gotten behind the bolt; the gun seems to be fine now. But even though I like the sheer solid "mechanicalness" of the Model 12, I was surprised to find that there is apparently a bit less reliability in pumps than I had thought Confused

(I've never had a stoppage of any kind in a SXS). Now I'll have a second shotgun along on any trip I make!

The only complete failure I have had in fourty years of shooting was my Model 12. The firing pin broke. I have had to get stuck shells out of other guns, plus other problems, but that was the only time I could not continue shooting.

Side by side horizontal or vertical I like having a tighter choke for a second shot if needed.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Lodi, CA

Powderburn wrote:

Guest

Doctor, at one time I shot a nice Beretta O/U all the time when I hunted. Then I started watching who was, shooting better on both clays and pheasants. So I took some good advice and started shooting an autoloader. I am convinced that there are pros and cons for using both, and learning how to shoot (something I still am trying to figure out) will sort it out better than any other approach. Shoot those double guns and have fun. Learn to shoot and you will have your buddys switching to doubles guns!!!

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

I have no trouble at all doing what I need to do with any of the types of shotguns mentioned. They all fit, all of them that I own are made well, and frankly I have trouble deciding which type, and which gun, to take on an excursion, be it for targets or game.

And, to be even more frank, all of this "gauge " stuff we like to throw around is BS too when the rubber hits the road---with a couple of caveats: if you are professionally competing at a live pigeon, clay target or a sporting clays shoot for money or titles, or hunting geese, the 12 gauge is the gun that usually best does the job. But, on game birds hunted by a reasonably accomplished shot with a conscience, I can use my 20 ga. Beretta Silverhawk or the Merkel 1620 or the Model 12 20 ga. or the Sweet 16 A-5 or the Citori Lightning 16 or 28 ga. and the birds don't know the difference---and neither do I.

As we all should know by now---shoot what you like and can afford, and don't let the bullsh-t spoil your party.

Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 682 Location: MAINE

Well spoken Dr .

The repeater vs double gun debate is a hot topic throughout the different websites on the internet as well as camp fires, and it is fun to debate the various advantages and disadvantages of each. Personally, I have carried them all over the years, in fact about 55 yrs, and I lean towards doubles these days. Not because I am an elitist, but because I hunt prairie birds where the miles walked between shots is much greater than say quail hunters in Texas. And when those precious birds are found, shots at multiple birds are rare. The doubles just carry better for me than repeaters and I prefer the power of 16s and 12s when hunting tough birds like pheasants. When I lived in TX and hunted bobs, I frequently carried a Benelli 20 ga which is very light but just doesn't carry as well as my Merkel 1620 or Jeffery BLE 2.5" 12ga. Both which I believe are a little heavier than the Benelli.

Hunting with old American guns does appeal to me but over the years I traded off my Lefevers, Elsies, and Foxes (all lower grades) for which I need a big kick in the butt for doing. I do have a few old American repeaters (Ithaca M37 16ga, Win M42 '410, Rem 11-48 28ga) that I enjoy playing with occasionally.

But as Dr. D stated, it is really all about having fun, so get out and shoot those guns!

BTW - - HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Dr., I think you are overthinking this! Good thoughts, but geez! I think it is as simple as "what you want to shoot".
My brother in law will drop three (max allowed in the chamber here) with three in his auto, or pump. He has switched to an 20 ga. O/U! I think it is because of the lighter weight, plus it swings fast. He is one of the most 'hard core' hunters I have ever known, and he covers some ground during the upland season. He is also one of those irritating people that regularly gets his limit of birds.
I have found that on my first 'buck fever' shots of the season I shoot better with the SXS than any of the other styles I own.

Guest

Highcountry said it well for me.

I like them all, but one other practical advantage for a double that matters to me is the ease of unloading and putting the gun away when returning to my truck. I have two go-getter birddogs, and there are issues involved when unloading my gun and keeping my dogs crated and not getting hit by other vehicles. It's just so easy to crack open the SxS or OU, unload it, and put it away. If I'm near a road I keep my younger dog on the jeager lead, and grab the collar on my other dog if a vehicle comes along. I've noticed the whole routine is so much smoother with a hinged gun. In Wisconsin, if your uncased gun touches your vehicle, loaded or not, you'll get pinched by the wardens, so it literally is a juggling act with dogs, guns, and vehicles. The doubles just make all of that much easier and safer for all involved.

That said, I still use my Rem 11 auto and hunted for years and years with pumps, but this year with a routy pup along, I really noticed how much easier the truck routine goes with my doubles.

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 452 Location: WI

I don't think it's a matter of which is better, or which is more patriotic. I think it's a matter of using the right tool for the job at hand, and the right tool is largely a matter of preference.

But, not always. When it comes to hunting ducks and geese over decoys, I want that third shot. I've dropped a few birds with a third shot after hitting them once or more.

I prefer doubles, but I also own autos and pumps. Why choose one over the other when you can have both?

Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Wickenburg, AZ

"Its also not about the love or appreciation of mechanical designs, ingenuity, or a well made tool."

Dr David, I can't let this quote of yours pass without giving you another perspective on the matter.
I was talked into buying a 16ga model 12 in 1967 or so to go along with the 12 and 20 ga S/Ss I had been hunting with.
I am a retired tool and die maker with 48 years in the trade. As such I do have a sense of appreciation for machinery having worked with it for so many years. I was then and am now convinced that the model 12 (and other pumps and I suppose automatics also by association) are much better representation of Americas mechanical genious than all the Parkers,LCs etc ever made. The S/Ss for all their beauty and grace ( I own several) are but a continuation of designs laid down more than a century ago in other countries. Pumps and autos on the other hand are quintessentially American and owe nothing to anyone other than the geniuses who designed them. It IS possible to appreciate them for not only their firepower but for their unique mechanical design and execution as a massed produced fine TOOL for the activity for which they were designed. Every time I clean my model 12s I am struck by the fact that this wonderfully durable hunting TOOL was made in the millions at a price that almost anyone could afford. I went out last week with a 20ga Model 1912 that was made in 1918 that cost under $40 then and took a few quail. I carry it with every bit as much pride as I do my AYA rd body 16 or new 28ga RBL.

Well said. (even though my 12 gave me a problem lately, I still like it for the reasons you said)

Guest

Walt, that was simply a great post!

When I really want to hit something with my FIRST shot, I grab my 76 year old Remington 11. You're right, it's not always about the firepower.

Great perspective on the design and American heritage too!

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Lodi, CA

Walt,

My point here was not that the pump or auto isn't an amazing American design, but rather that American ingenuity is not limited to, or necessarily solely represented by, the pump or the autoloader. American gunmakers have a lot to brag about! What is often overlooked by some, is that American design and ingenuity also played a very important role the invention of the modern doublebarreld breechloading hammerless shotgun as well. Think, for example, about Dan Lefever.

While I am no expert, I believe that Daniel Myron Lefever is one of two authentic geniuses in the history of American gun design and manufacturing. The other of course is John Moses Browning. And just as John Browning's contributions to the repeater forever changed our vision of the shotgun, Dan Lefever launched a revolution that not only transformed American gunmaking, but his ideas about the breechloader also played a major role in the development of the modern hammerless shotgun.

As others more knowledgeable than I can explain, Lefever started building guns in 1856 before the European breechloading shotgun was even in its infancy. In 1872, Lefever and his partner Dangerfield were assigned a patent for a thumb operated bolting system for a break action gun. Then, by 1875 Uncle Dan was actually advertising his own breech loading doubled barreled shotgun! It wasn't until a full year later when W.W. Greener came to the U.S. and won a prize in the Continental Exposition for a hammerless breechloader (built on Murcott's 1871 patent). In the same Exposition, John Deeley from Westley Richards demonstrated his invention for the first hammerless breechloader that was cocked using the leverage created by opening the barrels. While these guys were busy showing off, Lefever on the other hand was at work designing the rib extension or dolls head to help keep a gun closed and was continuing to solve other problems associated with the action of modern breechloader. In 1878, Lefever exhibited a breechloading gun at the Sportsmans Association and took home the only two gold medals up for grabs; one for the best American breechloading gun and the other for the best breechloading gun in the world! Now, some have tried to claim that like Greener, Lefever used Murcott's design as a point of departure. But this is pure nonsense and any close inspection of Lefever's action reveals that it is clearly very different from Murcott's. Finally, as testament to Lefever's ingenuity, H.A. Linder of Germany began building guns using Lefever's patents and later exported them around the world under the Charles Daly name. There is more, but I hope you get the idea.

Thus, when it comes to the shotgun, as an American I believe we have much more to be proud of than just the pump and autoloader --amazing and magnificent accomplishments as they are. Dan Lefever was right there from the beginning and didn't just build upon or enhance a European design for the modern doublebarreled breechloadering shotgun. Rather, contrary to what many believe about the development of the modern double barrled shotgun, Dan Lefever actively participated in the creation of the side by side, and his "Automatic Hammerless" is a true masterpiece.

So, I hope along side everyone's appreciation for the Model 12, the Model 31, or the Model 37 you all save a little praise for the fine and uniquely "American" doubles that Uncle Dan invented and built. Besides, don't you just hate when the English or the French take credit for everything?